No habla ingles & jury duty???

I’m not much on the show, but I suspect that the premise was not so much the accuracy of the translation, but the jury’s exposure to extraneous information. The jury is entitled to use only the evidence presented, and not to rely upon any external sources other than their own common experience and knowledge.

If a juror knows something outside the bounds of common knowledge, and he communicates that to the jury, in effect he’s becoming a witness. And his testimony isn’t subject to the normal test by cross-examination that other witnesses are subject to.

So - without having seen the episode - I would speculate that that was the problem.

  • Rick

I thought English was basically the official language here. Most of the US speaks it and most of everything here is in English.


~Shane (Formerly StrTrekNut)
AIM/AOL screen name: Shane0630
**My Homepage: http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/sandringham/241/ **

From a legal standpoint, there’s a crucial difference between “the legal language” and “basically the legal language” Shane.

And Lucky:

A basic knowledge of English is a requirement of citizenship. However, it can take years to get to know a language well enough to be comfortable with complicated things like legal proceedings.

Well, and vice versa, then - you’d have to also exclude Anglos from a trial with a Spanish-speaking Latino defendant. This just isn’t a workable policy IMHO.

Besides, a “jury of your peers” just means other laymen (or laywomen) instead of judges. It doesn’t mean people who are just like you.

uh… I meant to say “the official language” not “the legal language” …

really shouldn’t post with a hangover :slight_smile:

Well now, Rick, you raise an interesting point: what do you do when other members of the jury are fluent in Spanish and they can understand what a witness is saying without an interpreter, and the interpreter is saying something different than what they understand the witness to be saying? It boggles the mind!

The bit about jury deliberations really bothers me, too, though I hadn’t thought about it closely until it was posted above. I have to believe that the presence of someone who does not speak a language in common with the other jurors, who must be accomodated through the services of an interpreter, will only hinder the deliberation process; it will certainly make it last MUCH longer than otherwise. The give and take of discussion, analysis, and argument amongst 12 people will be artificial, due to the need to allow everything to be translated. People will be able to speak only one at a time, and forget any real arguments (can you imagine the poor interpreter trying to translate an argument between two or more people?).

I understand that the Treaty apparently requires this, but IMHO it’s a bad idea all the way around.

-Melin

Let’s continue… with a slight shift.

Years ago (damn, it’s been 20), I worked in North Carolina three summers with migrant farmworkers. This was a real transitional period for seasonal farm work on the East coast. The first year, the migrant population I dealt with was 50% American Black, 40% Spanish speaking Mexicans and Mexican Americans (don’t even start asking about status of documents), and 10 American Whites. Second summer, the population shifted to 50% Hispanic, 30% American Black, and 20% French speaking Haitian. By the third summer,it was 70% Hispanic and 30% Haitian.

Now North Carolina did try to keep up lingustically, actively looking for bi-lingual members of the local community to serve as translators at hospitals, police stations and other critical social centers.

They had more luck with Spanish than they did with French. High School Castilian Spanish translates more accurately into Mexican farm worker than High School Parisian French translates into Haitian farm worker French.
There were times where farm workers were accused of crimes (justly and unjustly) by people who did not speak their language, were tried and convicted by those who did not speak their language. Felonies were defended by Farm Worker Legal Services, and the venue was often changed to Raleigh, where language support was more readily available. But, misdemeanors such as DUI, drunk and disorderly, shoplifting, petty theft trespassing, etc. were all handled locally without juries and with minimally accurate translation. Some of the cases were dropped: the accused told to leave town. Others were fined or given short jail time and then told to leave.

There are several questions that arise from this situation. How are the rights of the accused or the offended protected when they speak different languages, particularly where that language is not so pervasive in the community (as in the case of the Haitian French-speakers)? Does a jury trial by peers demand it be conducted in the language they speak? Can the rights of the defendant be better protected by having some same-native-language speakers on the jury?

-Randy

It’s a mind-boggler, all right.

I guess I have only a practical answer: you follow the procedure that you would ordinarily follow on appeal it you suspect the jury deliberation process was contaminated by extraneous evidence. There’s boatloads of case law wherein the jury deliberations have been invaded and the verdict overturned… in one case a juror went to the accident scene, measured distances himself, and communicated his finding the next morning to the jury. Not quite on point, but there was a case in which a bailiff answered a jury’s question rather than taking it to the judge. There was one in which a juror had pharmacology training and undertook to share his insights with the jurors. All those were remanded for new trials. So, at least as far as my imperfect recollection goes, there’s substantial support for the proposition that if the jury hears substantial evidence from outside the courtroom, it’s grounds for a new trial.

Now, I realize all that’s a cop-out, because you ask “What do you when…” and the answer, “Make your best appellate case,” is a bit unsatisfying. I can’t think of a better answer, though. And it might not be as bad as it sounds: you would have to show that (a) the interpreter said things which (b) were intrepreted differently by some members of the venire, (c) that they communicated those reactions to the rest of the jury pool, and (d) they were material. Then you’d have to argue that it wasn’t a Chapman harmless error.

But short of questioning every juror on his understanding of Spanish, and dismissing for cause those who know it… an impossible approach under Batson… I don’t see a solution.

Agreed. It’s bad enough doing a trial when the defendant needs an interpreter, and he’s got someone constantly whispering to him.

I concur. :slight_smile:

  • Rick

Rudha;

I understand that it takes some time to learn a language. I speak three. But to the best of my knowledge, a person is not even eligible for citizenship until they have been granted permanent residence and then live here 5 years. Five years is enough time to become fluent when one is immersed in the language, IMO.


“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

Darn, I hit submit too soon.

So, if a person has achieved citizenship and still cannot speak the language well enough to sit on a jury without an interpreter, I would say that they have not been making a serious effort to learn the language.


“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

Lucky, the five-year rule only applies to some permanent residents - for others it’s three years - and you don’t have to have been physically present in the US the whole time; it is possible to become a US citizen having spent as little as 18 (nonconsecutive) months here.

Your point is taken though, and you’re probably correct in the majority of cases. I concede. :slight_smile:

What about a natural-born citizen who doesn’t speak the language?

Actually, it’s even possible to become a citizen in as little as a day under the Expeditious Naturalization Program. That’s for immediate family members who have been lawfully admitted to the United States on an immigrant visa who will accompany their government-employee (military or civilian) US citizen sponsor overseas on government orders. Great program.

Lucky wrote:

Shane wrote:

Well the point has been alluded to before, but maybe it has to be made explicit- New Mexico is an exceptional case because a major portion of its population was an ongoing functioning Hispanic speaking community long before it became part of the United States. The legal status granted the Spanish language was not to accomodate immigrants who came to the United States unwilling to learn the language- it was to acknowledge the fact that there was already a society using the language when the United States came to them.
Melin wrote:

Actually, until the last several decades the native Hispanic citizens were almost half the population. Thus, granting coequal status to both English and Spanish was not some overly PC sentiment, but an eminently practical adjustment to local circumstances. There many cases of having to translate Spanish for Anglo jurors. Restricting jurors to only those speaking English would create as many problems as it solved.

The situation has changed some in recent decades with Anglos making up a greater portion of the population and more of the Hispanic community being bilingual.

I don’t disagree with the points made about the undesirability in general of allowing non-English speaking jurors in most of the county- I just don’t think enough recognition is being given in this thread to the unique historical circumstances which made New Mexico’s specific case an exception.

[[I don’t disagree with the points made about the undesirability in general of allowing non-English speaking jurors in most of the county- I just don’t think enough recognition is being given in this thread to the unique historical circumstances which made New Mexico’s specific case an exception.]]

Thank you.

Au contraire, Ruadh, I concede. Thanks for the information.


“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

Jill

You might be right. The Spanish speakers stole the land from the American Indain, who had it first, and we in turn fought and stole it from the Spanish speakers?

Should a Native American Indian that only speaks his language be excluded from a jury? Seems very unfair to do that.


Things are not what they seem to be; nor are they otherwise.
[lankavatara Sutra]

Interesting thread. I know pathetically little about how American courts actually operate (concerning grounds for appeals, etc.), but the general topic of linguistic pluralism greatly interests me. The jury system really seems to push the limit of how far linguistic pluralism can be accommodated in American society – even in New Mexico!

Still, most of the arguments I’ve read above that are against including non-English-speakers on juries seem to revolve around matters of inconvenience or impracticality rather than matters of principle. Most of these same arguments could also be used in favor of disallowing deaf or blind people from being on juries. Would a deaf person fare any better during jury deliberations than a non-English-speaker? Would his or her presence be any less “disruptive” to the process? Would the “filtering” influence of an interpreter be any less of an issue here? Judging from what I’ve read above about ASL etc. (very informative, by the way!), I would think not. Yet, in principle, American courts seem willing to accommodate deaf people so that they can take part on juries. (I’m sure some other jurors would privately grumble about the distraction, the inconvenience to themselves, etc., but that’s beside the point.)

So if, in principle, we are willing to accept deaf people as jurors, why not other people who also need the services of a translator/interpreter?

One argument could be that because lack of proficiency in English, unlike deafness, does not have the legal status of a disability, there’s no reason to bother with people who can’t speak English; the law doesn’t call for it. Well, I suppose. But to me, it just sounds like another way of saying that “we” wouldn’t want to bother with deaf people, either, if we didn’t have to.

Another argument could be that, hey, if naturalized citizens haven’t learned how to speak English fluently even after having lived in the U.S. for five years, they must not be up to snuff as citizens – if they haven’t learned English, how on earth could they really be tuned into Truth, Justice, and the American Way? Lack of English ability indicates lack of assimilation, right? That might seem compelling enough, but I think that if we accept this line of thinking then the logical conclusion would seem to be that these people shouldn’t have been granted citizenship in the first place. You’re either a citizen or you’re not. We could, I suppose, set higher standards for what counts as an acceptable level of linguistic and cultural assimilation for citizenship (maybe let a Republican-controlled Congress take a stab at this?), but is that really the direction we would want to take?

Personally, as a matter of principle, I would much rather see juries with translators/interpreters on hand than juries deemed to be adequately “assimilated” (by someone’s arbitrary standards). And yes, I know it’s easy to say “in principle”! As people have made clear in earlier posts, there would of course be plenty of complications and costs involved, and it might be extraordinarily difficult to work out in practice.

On a related note, does anyone know how countries with more than one official language do work out this kind of thing in practice? Say Canada, or Switzerland, or South Africa, or India? (Not sure which of these use juries.) Anyone?

Despite all the fulminating about jurors not being able to comprehend accurately the evidence they are experiencing if they can’t speak English, there is a fundamental point being missed, here. When a witness speaks something other than English, the witness’ testimony is interpreted (correctly, btw, it is translated, not interpreted, but that gets really really technical as to the difference). Now, given that this is true, the jurors don’t have the ability to accurately understand exactly what has been said, and with what emotions and nuances it is being said. Under the circumstances, how would a juror having the testimony interpreted to them be different?

Mikan: perhaps you meant to say “other non-English speakers?” I’m actually now anxiously awaiting a case to crop up in which a Deaf person will be considered for jury duty.

Monty, thanks for the corrective to my crude distinction. (I’ll try to keep it in mind next time I’m “talking” about something like this!)