"no, it IS good, you just don't GET it"

There is currently a thread about “Do any men read Jane Austen?”

Austen is much richer if you “get it.” To “get it” you have to have an understanding of the period and the class of people Austen is writing about. However, since that period is 230 years ago, and that class is the British gentry, it isn’t something commonly “got” by modern Americans. So the language feels stilted, the wit is lost, and the tension is replaced by “what’s the big deal.” At the same time, if it grabs you without context (which it has done over and over again to many people - sometimes due to the existence of Colin Firth), people often find themselves looking for context, and the books open up further and become richer - as I said in the other thread, I’m reading a biography of Mary Wollstonecraft that is making me understand Jane Austen and her characters much better, though I’ve been rereading Austen for twenty years off and on.

“No, you just don’t get Thomas Kinkade.”

See the thing that inevitably irritates me when I have this discussion with people is the assumption that “not interested” = “didn’t understand it” or possibly “isn’t capable of understanding it”.

People tend to use the phrase “didn’t get it” as though it meant “didn’t understand it” with the connotation that you weren’t bright enough to understand it. In other words, they use the phrase as though it were synonymous with “you’re just not smart enough to understand whatever-it-is”. This annoys many other people, including me.

There are lots of things I’m just not interested in or just don’t like. If I don’t enjoy something, I’m not going to expend energy learning the subtext and intricacies of it if I have the option not to. I’m no longer a formal student, therefore I no longer study any topic that is not of interest to me.

For example, I have an intense dislike of Steinbeck’s works. I’ve read a number of examples, and in several instances had to study it in sufficient depth to write papers discussing it of sufficient quality to maintain my scholarship. I just don’t like it. It doesn’t interest me, I hate the style, and I think the writing was arrogant, condescending, and overly affected. Furthermore, I suspect that most of the subtext and symbolism people allude to in those works is the product of generations of literary analysis as opposed to actually intended by the author. (Incidentally, ditto with Shakespere, although I like his work more.)

I get it, I just don’t like it. And yet, every time I’ve discussed my dislike of Steinbeck’s works with someone who liked it, they’ve given me an impatient look and said “you just didn’t get it” in a tone of voice that implies my lack of affection is somehow indicative of my mental faculties. Same goes with Buffy - or Arrested Development - or Lost. I even like Buffy - as fluffy, escapist entertainment as opposed to Symbolism Laden Art.

There’s a fair sized subset of the human population who do not take differences in taste as essentially aesthetic differences of opinion. They assume - in my more charitable moments I believe it’s not consciously - that people who don’t agree with them on the greatness of their passion are just lacking in understanding (or not capable of understanding) as opposed to differing in taste. Having discussions with people from this subset about art and literature is heinously irritating to me.

There’s a whole lot of talking going on here for folks who haven’t even defined their terms!

like it
love it
relate to it
get it
understand it
understand the appeal of it

Are all these synonomous? I don’t personally think so. I understand Napoleon Dynamite. I relate to it, in that I was a socially awkward kid in the '80s with a fondness for unicorns and pegasi and didn’t have snappy comebacks beyond “shut up!” I don’t like it or love it. I can write you a thesis on why each “joke” is intended to be funny, why fans are laughing and how that humor influenced other movies, TV and advertising. But I don’t personally laugh. I found it the most boring piece of dreck on film. I’d rather get high on caffeine and watch all of Sleep than watch Napoleon Dynamite for a third time.

I understand it quite deeply, and I relate to it. But I don’t Get It. And I’m OK with that. :cool:

I don’t think one can “get” Buffy after two or three eps. Not only because so many eps were story arc ones that only had meaning within the context of a season or series, but because there were a lot of mediocre eps, and it’s quite possible to watch three and never see one that epitomizes Buffy. There are over 140 hours of Buffy (not including Angel, the comics or novels.) To say you “get” after seeing three eps is like saying you’ve “read” Moby Dick when you gave up around page 15 (both are around 2%, for those doing the math at home.)

It took me a while to “get” Buffy. When the series began, I heard good things about it. At the time, my schedule did not allow following a TV show; or maybe I just didn’t feel up to it.

Later on, I caught various episodes–often in re-runs. Somewhat confusing: Is he Buffy’s boyfriend? I thought he was a bloodsucking fiend! Is he a a bloodsucking fiend? I thought he was Buffy’s boyfriend! Wait–isn’t Buffy an only child? Some of the dialog was witty, but it didn’t grab my attention.

Summer before last, I had a “vacation in town.” (Use that time before the end of the fiscal year!) It was possible to catch 4 consecutive episodes in one day; I began to catch on. I began Netflixing with Season 1, Episode 1 & soon ordered the Chosen set from Amazon.

If someone has too little time to become a fan or too little money to buy a bunch of DVD’s, that’s OK. (I’m getting Angel season by season. I bought Firefly sight unseen; on its first run, all I remember is an article comparing it to Andromeda. Unfortunately, the article didn’t say “but Firefly doesn’t suck.”)

But I won’t slag something that I haven’t seen. I’ll just say “haven’t seen it.” (I’ve seen Thomas Kinkade’s paintings. Unfortunately.)

Okay, let’s use this as an example.

On one level:

Firefly is a genre-bending blend of two standard forms, the Western and the Sci-Fi adventure. (And yes, I use the informal Sci-Fi deliberately, rather than the more purist SF.) That much is obvious. If you “get” that, then you “get” the basics of the show. And if the resulting hybrid format doesn’t particularly resonate for you, or if you just plain don’t like it, well, that’s fair.

On another level:

Firefly uses this hybrid form to examine the broad currents of history in a metaphorical manner. In any exploration of new territory, there will be a “core of civilization,” and a “frontier.” The forms these take will no doubt be particular to their time and place, but Firefly chooses to borrow familiar narrative archetypes to represent those two extremes. In the Firefly universe, “civilization” takes the form of a fairly cold but safe and ordered Star-Trek-ky world, while the “frontier” is literalized as the Old West, which is warm and human but messy and dangerous.

Placing these two extremes in opposition gives the storytellers an opportunity to illuminate, allegorically, the conflicts and clashes of our own real-world experience. This is also fairly obvious, though you don’t need to “get” it to enjoy the show. However, if you do, there is additional room for appreciation and enjoyment. Doesn’t mean it’s required that you do. Just means that a simple acknowledgement that such potential depth exists provides an opportunity for you to further engage with the show if you choose.

And on yet another level:

Firefly is a reconstruction of narrative itself. By choosing two very clear archetypal genres, Firefly inherits by implication their rules, their requirements and expectations. Heroes in the Star Trek universe make a lot of noise about being advanced, about being peaceful and civilized, but when their backs are against the wall they still pull out the phasers. Heroes in an Old West universe know they’re on their own, know the Law is a somewhat more fragile construct, and have a much shorter distance to travel from “civilized” behavior to what is, effectively, vigilantism.

Firefly pits not just the historical and social bases of the two cultural archetypes against one another but the narrative bases as well, which is to say, the mythologies. We, as viewers, expect the characters of each storytelling format to behave according to the rules of their stories. And Firefly, by mixing and matching two conflicting genres, finds the freedom to borrow, exploit, invert, and/or discard any of the standard tropes and cliches of the narrative forms in which it’s based.

By so doing, the show reflects back to us our own preconceptions, our own wishes and desires, and our own reasons for enjoying these storytelling forms. Sometimes the show gives us exactly what we want, and sometimes it undercuts our expectations. In “War Stories,” we get to see Mal rising, all alone, from the torture chamber, exactly the way a good hero should; but then a couple of minutes later, when he’s in trouble and Zoe says “this is something he needs to do himself,” Mal says, “no it ain’t,” and his friends step in to assist. A clearer example of the show’s subversive intentions, I think, can’t be found.

I think of Firefly as sort of a first draft of history: messy, cluttered, organic, occasionally contradictory, not always entirely satisfying from a standpoint of pure storytelling, but deliberately so; it’s what things are like before the mythologizers begin streamlining and simplifying the stories to make tidy morals out of them. It’s Star Trek with Kirk as kind of an imperialist jackass; it’s Rio Bravo with Dean Martin’s character at the center and John Wayne off to the side. This appeals greatly to me, because I like stories that allow me to think about the story-ness of them.

That’s something else to “get” about the show: its conscious attention to its own storytelling. If you’re as interested in narrative as I am, about the audience’s relationship to the story, about how people engage with protagonists and their objectives and what about certain stories we find satisfying and what we find frustrating, then there is a lot to love in Firefly. If you’re not interested in that, or worse if you find it boring or navel-gazing or pretentious, then… not so much with the love.

Now, all of this is not to justify Firefly specifically. It’s just an example, from my own perspective, since it has been mentioned more than once here. Really, the intent is to lead, somewhat circuitously, back to what RickJay* and others have pointed out: the ambiguity of what it means to say that someone “gets” something.

Does it mean “comprehend,” in the sense of intellectual understanding? I would argue, no, not entirely; that doesn’t capture the full connotation. One can grasp all three of the levels I laid out above for Firefly and yet still not enjoy the show overmuch, if one is not interested in what the show is trying to do.

Rather, to “get” something, one must not just understand the material, but connect with it, emotionally and intellectually, and sense, consciously or subconsciously, why the material is significant to oneself. As above, I am very, very interested in stories that allow me to consider, while I experience them, the construction of the narrative and the various moment-by-moment choices to either go with the genre expectations or turn them on their head. There’s lots of this in Firefly. I “get” that about it, because I’m predisposed to appreciate material that works on this level.

Which is why talking about “getting” something is such a vague and, as lissener says, potentially inflammatory term. It treads right on the line of being an insult, and, to my mind, is not a very useful foundation for a dialogue about a piece of material. Without a clearer understanding of all the connotations, without a deliberate effort to set aside the unwanted implications, a suggestion that “you don’t like it because you don’t get it” is, from my point of view, pretty much worse than useless, because it is so likely to be divisive, as observed by Aangelica and others.

I’d like to propose a moratorium on the term, at least when used in isolation. If it comes up, there needs to be a serious tangent to make sure everybody’s on board with what it means, before people start taking offense.

Oh, and just for the record, I don’t care for Moby-Dick either. :stuck_out_tongue:

Oh please. Your post was condescending in tone to say the least.

I think the problem came from you misinterpeting “dismiss”. I meant it as an active. You apparently saw that as meaning “if you have no interest in it to begin with.” Like someone saying “What’s to like about that show? It’s just about a girl and some vampires.” Which is the most surface level look at it. When really that’s not what the show is about. At all. And if you are going to sound off about it at least come from a place of knowledge about the subject.

Bah! Let me reparse that.

I think the problem came from you misinterpeting “dismiss”. You apparently saw that as meaning “if you have no interest in it to begin with.” I meant it as an active.
Like someone saying “What’s to like about that show? It’s just about a girl and some vampires.” Which is the most surface level look at it. When really that’s not what the show is about. At all. And if you are going to sound off about it at least come from a place of knowledge about the subject.

Having been in these conversations, I can assure you we are not trying to “sound off about it.” We are telling you that we don’t care and want you to shut up about it.

I’d say you most definitely get Napoleon– you just don’t like it. My wife doesn’t get Miyazaki movies. I don’t get those albums of field recordings that Pitchfork is always reviewing. If I listened to one, I couldn’t even guess what it’s trying to convey-- much less judge whether it’s being conveyed well or poorly. That’s not getting it.

See, that is *your *projection. When I use the phrase–which I don’t, certainly not here–I use it to mean, “I understand that you have chosen not to devote the time and attention that I had to put forth in order to ‘get’ it, but I really wish you would so we could share the experience.” If I thought you weren’t bright enough, I wouldn’t be bothering to discuss it with you in the first place.

*You *bring the bad blood with your defensive presumption.

On an even higher (or lower) level:

The tight pants!

To be fair, a lot of people do say “you don’t get it” and mean by it “you aren’t capable of understanding it” or “you don’t have the right background” (aka “it’s a black thing” and the like) or otherwise intend by use of the expression to denigrate the recipient of the criticism and put on an air of superiority. So it’s not unreasonable that when somebody is told they don’t “get it” they should bristle in response.

Which is why I suggested the phrase should be retired, or that when it is used a moment should be taken to make sure everybody’s on the same page about what it’s supposed to connote.

Well, I think the definition I most agree with so far is Carvaise’s, posted after my post. “to “get” something, one must not just understand the material, but connect with it, emotionally and intellectually, and sense, consciously or subconsciously, why the material is significant to oneself.”

I understand Napoleon, I comprehend what happens and why, but I don’t connect to it. It is not significant to me, however significant I understand it to be to others. In that sense, I don’t “get” it. For me, it’s an intellectual exercise only - it’s like looking at a picture of a hunky model compared to having mindblowing sex with someone for the first time where you really CONNECT, you know?

One I like but don’t “get”: 24. I watched the first season and about half of the second. I liked it OK. It was surprising and chilling and I liked the performances. But I didn’t connect with it, and eventually I lost interest. I like it well enough, but just never connected with it well enough to “get” anything from it.

So, for me, for this discussion, “get” = “connect with and sense why <blank> is significant to me.” No judgement at all, and if Buffy isn’t significant to you, then of course you don’t get it. If you don’t connect, you don’t connect. But if you haven’t experienced, you haven’t attempted to be connected, or to “get” it.

I think Bob Dylan (switching gears to music) tends to be an artist who inspires a lot of “you get it/him or you don’t” thinking. For one thing, he has no ambitions toward being a conventionally “good” singer. Most people who can’t stand Dylan cite his singing as a primary reason, and even some of his admirers seem to regard it as a minor nuisance, a small price to pay for the rest of the good stuff. I personally think — and I know I’m not alone — that Dylan is an amazingly expressive singer, bending and molding the English language in ways most singers never approach; I think covers of Dylan songs are almost invariably inferior precisely because they tend to be sung conventionally, without Dylan’s unique attentiveness to the nuances of the language; and I think if you know even a little bit about the primal American folk music that was Dylan’s primary influence, you understand how he developed the vocal style that he did.

So I guess you could say I “get” Dylan — or at least, I think I do. (I’ve been listening to the man for almost 20 years, and only recently have I begun to think I actually kind of know where he’s coming from.) I don’t know many people in my life who really like Bob Dylan, but I can usually differentiate those whose dislike is mainly superficial (“he can’t sing”) from those who’ve at least made the effort to get on his level and see what he was trying to do. (For example, a drummer friend of mine whose tastes lean toward Jean-Luc Ponty and the Mahavishnu Orchestra finds Dylan rather dull, and given his tastes, I can’t blame him.)

In the former example (“he can’t sing”), I would say that person doesn’t “get” Dylan. That’s not meant to be condescending; it’s just another (admittedly crude) way of saying someone remains ignorant of the influences and aspirations that shape Dylan’s work. In the latter example (the Mahavishnu guy), I would say that person got Dylan fairly well — as well as you could from just soaking up his work through the culture at large — but didn’t care for him.

Is it possible to “get” Dylan and still not like him? Sure. In a broader sense, I think those who are devoted to any art form learn to tell the difference between things that are bad and things they simply don’t care for. One side can and does bleed into the other, but once you start to develop your own aesthetic sense you can dislike someone without feeling uncultured or handle other people’s dislike of your favorite artist without getting defensive. (Hopefully!) For instance, I understand why people like Van Morrison, and think he’s a talented guy, but I wouldn’t bring home his records if I found them lying for free in the street. Do I not “get” Van Morrison? No; I just don’t care for him. I’ve heard many people admit that Brian Wilson is a genius while stating they absolutely can’t stand the Beach Boys. But I don’t think that kind of understanding is common, thus leading us to throw around loaded and imprecise terms like “He doesn’t get Dylan/Firefly/Family Guy/Vonnegut/Robbins/etc.”

Hope all this shit makes sense …

I agree entirely. As I said early on in this thread, it’s not a useful phrase in any serious discussion.

Still, I think Aangelica’s defensive response is as much a part of why it’s not a useful phrase as the fact that some people do, as you say, use the phrase to denigrate. I agree that it’s an inflammatory enough phrase to be considered godwinian in a serious CS thread.