No loyalty to the human race

Great Debates
1

In a discussion here on whether people with children receive greater benefits than people without, SingleDad defended the decision to have children with the following phrase:

Here’s my issue (which has nothing to do with the discussion is springs from): why should I have any “loyalty to the human race”? Put another way, besides my own individual desire for self-preservation, why should I care about the long-term prospects for humanity?

Obviously, humans will one day become extinct. If it were revealed to me that this would naturally have occured 60 generations from now, but that, because of things we have done to the planet, we have shortened humanity’s tenure to 30 or 20 generations, I would have trouble mustering up any tears. In fact, if it were revealed today that every child born from now on would be completely and utterly sterile, I can’t say that I’d be too upset.

I’m not cynical about the inherent worth of humanity, nor a believer in any form of spiritual afterlife. I’m not trying to weasel out of recycling my garbage or driving a fuel-efficient vehicle. Nor am I looking to justify the fact that I’m not particularly interested in having children. I’m just not seeing why I should feel like my species is any more entitled to or worthy of any extended tenure (much less perpetual existence) on earth than any other species is.

I can accept the argument that people want to see their children be able to grow up and have a future and the ability to have children of their own, but that quickly starts to get very abstract. The “for our children” argument really only convinces me that people could justify a loyalty to the next two or three generations or so before it starts to get quite nebulous.

So what am I missing? SingleDad and others, why should I feel any loyalty to the human race? Am I just being nihilistic about all this?

2

Animals feel no particular loyalty to their “race”. My beagle asleep in her basket here doesn’t care what happens to the beagle down the street, or to the beagles in the former Soviet Union, and she certainly doesn’t concern herself with the possible existence of beagles on Mars.

So, Nurlman, are you a man, or are you a beagle? :smiley:

“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

3

This is a really easy question for anyone interested in cryogenics. If you’re planning on going into the deep freeze, you had damn better well have some loyalty to the human race that’s going to wake you up someday. :slight_smile:

Otherwise? shrug… herd instinct?

4

Indeed. Why should you?

Actually, “should” is a strong word in this case. When I say you “should”, it is often followed by an effort to impress my ethical standards on you. I don’t think that’s what you’re looking for. I think what you’re looking for is, does it make sense for you to have loyalty to the human race? Well, that depends a bit on you.

Perhaps the human race as a whole doesn’t have much impact on your life. Probably, there ARE certain humans who do, though. I’m going to go ahead and assume that there are some humans whose behavior leads to pleasure or happiness on your part. This can include a person who gives you sex, or the person who made your computer, or its components.

Should you have loyalty to them? In a general sense, I would say yes. Even if you don’t give a shit about them, your life is better because of them. If they cease to exist tomorrow, your life will have less pleasure. So, even ignoring whether or not you feel any affection for them, it makes sense to have some amount of loyalty to them.

But what about their children? Or their children’s children? They’ll be providing you no direct benefit. So to that extent, from a purely material standpoint, which you seem to have adopted, then you owe them no loyalty, as they probly will not be providing you with any future pleasure.

So much for the purely material and immediate.

All this kind of assumes that you can separate yourself from the human race. Unless you’ve figured out a way to cease being human, you can’t. You’re not a free agent. You’re one of us.

The guy (or girl) that invented math was one of us. The folks that invented computers, they were in the gang, too. The folks that have fought to the death to create and preserve this country–why, they were practically neighbors.

So, you want to sit around and benefit from the sacrifices and work of humans throughout history and wonder whether or not you owe your own race any loyalty?

Of course you do, you ungrateful ass.

Only a small number of people are truly awake. These people go through life in a state of constant amazement.

5

I suppose for me, it boils down to a basic liking of people. Even people I haven’t met, who haven’t been born yet. Nor would I be particularly happy if someone thirty generations previous to me had decided “screw the human race” and prematurely ended our existence, thereby preventing my existence. (Yes, I realize that if I had never existed I would have very little to say on the matter. :slight_smile: ) Also, attempting to help humanity makes me a contributor to humanity, so I can lay claim to a tiny portion of humanity’s success. Being a part of a greater thing, and knowing that all of man’s future success will be in some tiny part due to me, makes me happy now.

6

In the world of enlightened self-interest, you should have an interest in humanity for a number of reasons –

Your house catches on fire. Sorry, you’re on your own.

You become injured trying to fight the blaze and need medical care. Sorry, you’re on your own.

Your possessions burn up and you need an immediate change of clothes and place to sleep. Sorry, you’re on your own.

You try to drive yourself to get help and have a flat tire. Because you’re injured, you need help changing it. Sorry, you’re on your own.

Etc. etc. ad infinitum ad nauseum.

I assume that if you saw one of your fellow humans in trouble, you might possibly lift a finger to do something to help them. Or have I misjudged you?

I understand all the words, they just don’t make sense together like that.

7

I would rephrase the question this way: Should loyalty to the human race override other all other loyalties?

i.e. Is it justified to, say, exterminate a species of whales because they might contain some useful chemical? Or is it OK to raise chimpanzees in captivity, intending them for medical experiments, because it benefits humanity?

I personally have a “loyalty to humanity” in that I would try and save people from dying, and that I think that if the human race faced extinction it would not be a good thing. But I’m not convinced that this loyalty justifies mistreating other species.

8

Originally posted by Nurlman:

Not nececelery.

Frogs first evolved 200-300 million years ago, and they haven’t gone extinct yet.

9

Disagree if you must but her’s my take.
I believe that for some unknown reason we as
humans have be given or been born into THE superior race.
Not so much that we are superior in all catagories but insomuch as we have the ability of free thinking unlike most animals.

we have the ability to fix what’s wrong if we choose to do so. If you choose to sit on your can and do nothing to participate in the human world then to me it is like a gift wasted.
Human life is precious we should do somthing with it. we have seen all the bad humans can do it only seems obvious that we should see how much good we can do instead/

I believe that we were given this gift of superiority over all else by a higher power to do somthing while we are here even if it is just to ponder loyalty to the human race.
that’s it that’s my take.

10

Nurlman, my take on what you’re saying is that you could have loyalty to:

  1. Friends and family
  2. Nature
  3. your neighborhood
  4. etc.

without the “human race” as an abstract being lumped into it. AM I accurate on this or no?

If so, I think that one could argue that loyalty to “the human race” could be of lesser value than loyalty to nature or to one’s God/Goddess/Pantheon. And in that light, I would agree that I don’t automatically owe allegiance to the human race if it means the destruction of everythig else.

(Intentionally not hijacking into a “why do humans deserve loyalty?” or “what has that race done for me lately?” thread)

Bucky

11

I think that people here are comparing two things here, loyalty to other human beings and the whole race. Compassion, etc. is something that I feel but playing for “Team Humanity” is something that I do not feel.

You know, doing what is right is easy. The problem is knowing what is right.

–Lyndon B. Johnson

12

Not that it’s been brought up, but:

If it came to a choice for me between loyalty to my tribe ('hood, county, state, country, what-have-you) or loyalty to my species, I’d have to go with species. Anything smaller just invites trouble.

13

The OP really asks one of the biggest ethical questions: does each individual human being have a responsibility to perpetuate the species?

It seems fairly obvious that no society can long survive that cares not about reproductive perpetuation. Does an individual’s consensual participation in “society” (i.e. adheres to, and expects the adherence of others, to an abstract set of restrictions on behavior) owe that society participation in its most invariant goal?

It’s also true that your myriad ancestors have, by definition, sacrificed to raise children, so that you yourself could exist. Do you not owe them a debt of gratitude by helping to perpetuate the species?

I’m certainly not arguing that everyone has an ethical obligation to bear and rear children. I’m merely arguing that each of us should bear some responsibility, do some work, towards the perpetuation of the species.

Dr. Crane! Your glockenspiel has come to life!

14

I’d like to give a big Straight Dope Message Board “WELCOME!” to the misnamed Smartass. An auspicious debut, my friend, but you need to talk to TubaDiva about changing your name! Didn’t detect a single smartass syllable. Or are you just slackin’? :smiley:

“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

15

SingleDad, part of the issue is “should I feel an obligation to perpetuate the species,” but it’s also a little broader than that.

Several years back, I read an article in the National Review about global warming fears and “Earth Day.” The writer’s point was that coupling the two concepts together was misleading, since global warming is not really a threat to the physical earth, but merely to the people on it. Raising global temperatures might change the way the Earth looks (and kill every human on it), but it’s not going to send the planet crashing into the sun.

Which leads to a broader question than just “should I feel an obligation to have children,” which is “why should I worry about distant future generations at all?” Should I feel an obligation to preserve fossil fuels so that someone 100 years from now will be able to drive a car? It seems presumptuous of me to think that people in the future will have the same technology and wants that we have today, and that they will want fossil fuels as much as we do now. While I certainly wouldn’t advocate wantonly wasting oil (or deliberately poisoning the enviornment or diverting rivers or whatever), I can’t conceive of a good argument for trying to save it so that people in the next century will have some too.

The argument that “what if people 5 generations ago thought that way” doesn’t really resonate with me. 100 years ago, nobody thought of conserving coal because “we might not have enough for the people in 2000.” They used up as much as they wanted without any (that I know of) regard to the consequences it would have on us. If they had exhausted all of the coal deposits, we obviously would have had to develop technology to obtain energy from some other source, just as some future generation will have to rely on something other than oil.

It’s not a function of me being loyal to my family but not to my race, it’s more a question of present vs. future. Is it wrong or selfish of me to care about my fellow human beings that are on this earth now, but not to be the least bit interested in making a better world or preserving resources now for the people who will be here 5 generations from now?

16

Notthemama, thank you. And, if I failed to offend sufficiently, I apologize. The name was chosen to avoid confusion. When I argue with people, my name tends to get changed to that at some point.

You should feel loyalty to the human race because, unless you are living alone in a cave somewhere, dining on dust, you require other humans, if not for survival, at least for general happiness. Imagine what would happen if everyone opted out. If you expect everyone else to participate, you are a hypocrite if you exclude yourself.

Of course, how you demonstrate that loyalty is endlessly debatable. In re the original post: If you’re wondering whether you have some duty to reproduce–I wouldn’t worry overmuch. History suggests that will pretty much come out in the wash.

Consider yourself officially exempted.

Only a small number of people are truly awake. These people go through life in a state of constant amazement.

17

** So, Nurlman, are you a man, or are you a beagle? **

::::::::::snickering behind hand:::::::::::
Notthemama cracks me up.

It’s an interesting concept, if you feel ‘no loyalty’ to the human race what kind of narrow world would you have?

Frankly, the heroics that one can witness when life is at its hardest are among the most stirring that exist. Who can forget the stranger that leaped into the Potomac after the plane crash, who ended up giving their own life to save another?

Your dedication to yourself isn’t admirable, it may be understandable, it is closer to the pack mentality, though even wolves seem to have more sentiment towards the betterment and survival of their own, than you appear to have.

My guess is, your stance is hypocritical too, unless you’ve never had to depend on another person, which isn’t likely.

I don’t suppose you’ve met Lindsay yet, have you??

Well, I guess that last comment has to send me back to the apology thread over in the BBQ pit!

18

What does cut someone some slack because they are parents refer to?

If it a job, and they think they are entitled to take time off to watch a soccer game, or whatever it is people with kids do, then I’d say no.

You were hired to do a job. If you aren’t there someone else is doing the job you were hired to do.

This is discrimination against people who are kidfree. I shouldn’t be expected to give up my evenings and weekends because of someone’s lifestyle choice.

Other than not wanting to cover someone’s job, I don’t see how the comment is relevant to cutting slack.

My interpretation of slack is that the person wants you to do him a favor and feel good about it.

Well, Singledad, what do you mean by cutting you some slack?

lindsay

19

I often take a pretty dim view of humanity in that there seems to be no bounds on the level of stupidity attainable by individual humans. But on the other hand, we’re the only technological civilization that I know of. If you could show me that life forms as advanced as ourselves were common in the universe, I might not feel too bad about the extinction of humanity. But we are the only example I know of - we have no idea if our level of civilization is so common that we’re uninteresting, or if we’re one of just a small handful of examples, or even unique.

Since we don’t know how common we might be, it seems worth trying to avoid killing ourselves off just yet. It’s not even clear that high levels of intelligence have any long term survival benefit, so we might be rather rare. Intelligence might be an evolutionary dead-end, but perhaps we have a chance to be the one that manages to steer its own way clear of that fate.

It makes no personal difference to me if humanity dies out in 30 years or if we’re still around in 30 million years; I won’t know either way. But it seems like a needless loss of information if we die out sooner than we had to. It’s not very interesting to worry about preserving a single copy of a work of art that anybody can buy for $19.95 at K-Mart, but it’s a little more interesting when that work of art is irreproducable and unique.

However I don’t see any resulting obligation to have children. It seems like extinction through underpopulation is not very high on the list of risks to our species, and many of the real risks might well increase with rising population.

–
peas on earth

20

bantmoff, are you saying that, if we discover (or are discovered by) other intelligent life, then there is no longer any good reason to feel loyalty to fellow humans? Then it’s okay to, say, let everyone die off?

Should I view you as a possible defector?

I keep thinking I should be outraged, but I’m having a little difficulty getting worked up. Sort of like worrying about my wife leaving me for…a dolphin.

Only a small number of people are truly awake. These people go through life in a state of constant amazement.