No membership dues, let your property burn

So this isn’t mundane or pointless, but I wanted to share it to get the thoughts of the Dope:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BRF_RURAL_FIREFIGHTERS?SITE=CALAK&SECTION=NATIONAL&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-02-16-18-00-35

Guy’s got a fire on his property. The rural fire dept won’t put it out because he didn’t pay his membership dues. Guy offers to pay on the spot so they’ll help him, says he didn’t know about membership dues, but apparently the dept. doesn’t have a policy for on-the-spot billing and payment. So, they let it burn but stayed put on the road nearby to make sure the fire didn’t start to consume the property of paying members.

Wouldn’t it have been easier to put the fire out and really lessen the possibility that the fire would start burning up other people’s property? Go after the guy for the dues when the fire’s put out and warn him about the consequences of not doing so next time? Next time, he wouldn’t be able to say he didn’t know about the dues.

I didn’t know practices like this still existed. It was common in the 1800s-- you would be given a little cast-iron plaque to nail to your house when you subscribed, so the company would know that you were a member.

I don’t know that I have all that much sympathy for the homeowner. When I bought my house, I actually checked to see how near the fire hydrants were to my property, and asked the neighbors about police/ambulance/fire service response times. It strikes me that with a smidgen of research, he would have known he needed to subscribe. (Didn’t he ever hear his co-workers talk about their subscription bills coming due or wonder why his property taxes were different?)

Secondly, if I let my car insurance lapse and got into a wreck, I couldn’t get coverage by offering to retroactively pay the premiums. It doesn’t work that way-- nor should it. The fire chief in the story is right-- if people knew they would put out a fire anyway, despite not paying, what’s the incentive for paying your dues on time?

Wow. I’m suffering a bit of culture shock here.

Emergency services standing around and doing nothing because you haven’t paid up front?? I’ve heard of things like this happening in Vietnam, where corrupt firemen can be seen hosing down the building next door, instead of the burning one, but that’s Vietnam.

I take it from the story that this is some sort of rural fire service which is not taxpayer-funded, but still… man… The volunteer rural fire brigades I’m familiar with are just that - volunteers. They are always having fundraising events and seeking donations. But they’re donations. If there is a fire, THEY PUT IT OUT.

But these guys in the OP… They have spent the money for fuel and the men’s time in getting out there and hanging around. All they are saving is the water, surely? Sure, they’re trying to preserve their donation base by using this as an example, but I still cannot get my head around the idea of firemen in a first world nation standing by and watching a fire, regardless of their financial arrangements.

The point of insurance is that it’s a way of lessening catastrophes. This is, in fact, a form of fire insurance. I don’t like this model of paying for fire companies, but I do agree that the homeowner probably should have asked about where the fire station was, etc., before buying a house. That’s one of the things that I check for before renting or buying. (Our fire station is less than a 12th of a mile away from our house.)

I’m glad to see that the firefighters would have rescued someone, whether the homeowner was a subscriber or not. However, I really think that this sort of payment plan is very outdated.

Wow…just, wow.

I must admit, I’ve never heard of this model before. If this homeowner moved in from someplace where this is non-existent, why would he think to ask about it? I move into a new place, I call and get the water, electric, phone and cable turned on. Fire service? That’d never even register as something I’d need to get “turned on”.

The whole thing kinda reeks to me.

Culture shock? I live in the US and I’m speechless about this.

I live in a rural state (Arkansas), but contrary to Lissa idea, no matter how far I moved into the country, it would never even occur to me to look into this, because I’ve never fucking heard of anything like it! I might look into how far away the nearest fire department is and how long it would take them to get to my house, but not how much I have to pay to get them do anything once they get there!

I mean, Jesus! As if I needed more incentive never to leave the fucking city! You rural folk are mean!

Good god, that sounds extremely fucked up to me. I always figured that fire fighters were like police, or doctors-they would be required to put out a fire by law.

Hell, what if the fire spreads?

I’ve heard of this before. The “subscription” form of funding is still done in some rural areas.

First off, the fire department is not tax-supported, so the dues are the only way they can fund themselves.

Second, in these areas, it isn’t exactly a deep, dark secret. If the homeowner really, really didn’t know about this, it’s because he really, really wasn’t paying attention.

And, like Lissa says, it’s not pay-as-you-go. The dues don’t pay the cost of the fire call. Once people decide to quit paying until they actually need the fire department, the whole system goes bankrupt.

I agree the whole thing is archaic, but that’s how it works.

And in the area of this event the fire insurance premium rates are doubtless based on the availability of a firefighting service. I’m astonished that when he bought fire insurance the agent didn’t make it clear that the rate was based on being a member of the firefighting service. I am also astonished that the mortgage holder, if there is one, didn’t also make sure of this.

My home town volunteer fire dept. wouldn’t go one foot out of the city limits to fight a fire. Had they done so and a fire broke out in town the insurers would have been all over them. Such systems are rare now. That former volunteer fire department has turned into a country fire department that is equipped to handle more than one fire at a time.

Protecting exposed uninvolved structures in many circumstances is a higher priority than the burning structure especially in 2nd/3rd world countries where buildings are far less solidly constructed and water supply may poor or limited.

Even here in the US if a house is heavily involved priority will go to containment before extinguishing the source. In my fire academy days we were taught RECEO

Rescue
Exposures
Containment
Extinguish
Overhaul

The firemen may work for free but the tools they use, fuel for the trucks, maintenance on trucks and buildings, equipment to recharge breathing apparatus, etc are not free. I’m gonna take a wild guess that since its not tax funded, its basically a private company. If that is the case they have little if any obligation to serve anyone in any way but a subscriber unless the city/county/whomever wants to start chipping in for coverage.

Stuff like this is also going to be covered in the title company is checking for things like homeowners insurance which is usually required to get a mortgage. The title company and or insurance providers will know and I’d bet my next paycheck that he knew all about it and chose to ignore it.

This reminds me of a story that made the newspapers here several years ago. Columbus, NM, is a border town just across from Palomas, Mexico. When there was a fire in Palomas, the Columbus Fire Department would respond if called. The State of New Mexico found out about this and told the Columbus Fire Dept. that they were forbidden from going into Mexico to fight fires. Next time there was a call for help from Palomas, what did the Columbus Fire Department do? They went and fought the fire in Mexico.

Everyone should have such a fire department.

Sounds like a form of extortion to me.
Fire insurace: ‘pay us money and if there’s a problem will help fix it’
extortion: 'pay us money and we’ll make sure you don’t have any ‘accidents’"

So, how about they put out the fire, then send the guy a bill for it? Maybe cheaper for him than letting the property burn, more expensive than paying his subscription.

Again, what the firefighters did here was not illegal, nor immoral.

First - they responded to the call. They make it clear that they only stopped fighting the fire (or declined to fight the fire) once it was clear that no person was at risk.

Second - the homeowner, in this case, had elected (for reasons that seemed good to him at the time) to avoid paying his subscription fees. Like Lissa and others have said it’s something I can’t believe the homeowner was actually in ignorance of… mortgage, fire insurance, and title insurace companies all would have a vested interest in making sure that the homeowner was aware of the costs, and that the homeowner was keeping such dues paid.

Third - the costs of a fire department are staggering. Maintenance on the equipment is always going on. The capital equipment is hugely expensive (I think small pumper trucks go for around a million dollars apiece, and even a small volonteer or on-call dept. will usually have two of those, at least.) even when it last twenty years, it’s not going to last forever. Personnel and fuel costs aren’t the only things to be figured in, after all.

Finally, all fire companies are paid for through some form or another. The urban/metropolitan model of the professional fire department, with personnel in the fire house at all times, that most people assume is the norm, is the more recent innovation. There, instead of volontary dues to the fire company, the dues are actually subsumed in the local taxes that are taken willinilli from homeowners, or taxpayers. In NYC, forex, there’s a municipal income tax as well as state and federal. Some of that money is used to fund the fire companies, and police and other aspects of the city government. So, the dues can be assumed to have been paid for any person who might require their services. With these relict companies that still collect their dues themselves, they do have a reasonable concern about the possibility of losing routine revenue for every case where the act beyond the mandate to protect life and the property of dues-paying community members. Remember, what keeps such companies working is that most homeowners think that paying a fraction of their house’s value each year is worth it for the protection offered by the firecompany. If they go, instead, to a “Pay as you need us” model, the cost per house fire put out (including capital costs, here) would be on the order of $100,000 a fire, I’d imagine. They’d suddenly have to be able to fund each year’s budget through such charges, and I’m sure that they would be impossibly high. (I am admittedly making that number up as I go, but I think it’s pretty fair, really. Even underestimating the fire company’s operational cost per house fire put out. Here in the moderate sized city I live in there’s maybe one house fire a week that I see in the newspapers. Now those aren’t the only calls that the fire department responds to, but they are among the more wearing calls on personnel and equipment.)

I really do think that this is a case of a homeowner making a penny-wise pound foolish decision, and getting bitten by it. Just as I generally feel about homeowners who do without flood insurance, or car owners who keep putting off preventive maintenance until something breaks.

BTW, Joey P, your extortion analogy doesn’t fit. If the firemen had set the fire, it would. As is, no.

While I’m sure that you could get enough equipment and vehicle costs to reach $1million somehow, the small ones are significantly cheaper than that (relative term).

My town Sandown NH wants to purchase a new pumper/rescue truck, and (Article 14) says that the cost to purchase and equip would be $290,000.00. It’d be about 23K more to lease it with a purchase option ($1) at the end of 5 years.

We’re replacing a 1967 version so we certainly got a few years out of it, granted with a few major overhauls between then and now.

The town is an all volunteer department, but the town funds the equipment. If the town didn’t fund it, you’d be safe betting that I’d be paying my dues. If the homeowner in the OP didn’t, that’s his problem. Ignorance of the law/details is no excuse, same as driving/gun laws and a whole host of other concerns between the states.

=-Butler

I’d say I agree, but I’d be more inclined to think they were stupid and negligent and lazy.

A mortgage lien was put on my home in 2001 - for a mortgage given to the owners of lot #23. So when we re-financed twice between 2001 and 2004, an odd “flag” came up on our deed, lot #123. Everyone involved with the refinancing deals just shuffled more papers, shrugged a bit, and handed us papers to sign in quinmincelipcate and said ‘everything was fine’, from mortgage to taxes to title information.

When we tried to sell, well … it was still a problem. A problem that resulted in me sitting in my fsck-you suit in the main boardroom of the lawyer’s office (which was hard to miss if you were visiting the office to get anything done) working calmly on my laptop until enough people got enough signatures to get the lien removed. The mortgage it had been issued for was long paid off.

No, no one seems to look very hard, spellcheck, or give a darn. It really drives me friggin nuts. And it’s taught me to look up my parcel online every six months to make sure something “new” hasn’t appeared.

Thanks for the figures there. I’ve got to eat my words, I guess.

I was basing the cost on a “sea story” I’d heard from someone on my ship. Back in the day, a supply PO onboard the Enterprise got the first stock number he saw for a “Pump, Fire Fighting” without checking on the details of what he was ordering. He thought he was getting a replacement P-250 portable firefighting pump. What he got was a half million dollar pumper fire-fighting truck. Delivered to the ship. With no returns. Eventually, the ship ended up giving the pumper to the Va. Beach FD, since they couldn’t return it, and it wasn’t exactly the most efficient thing for the shipboard firefighters to have. (Though I hear they did hav fun driving it around the flight and hanger decks.) This was in the mid-80’s, and so I figured that prices would continue to go up since then.

I don’t think that the exact costs matter as much as admitting how expensive over all the equiping and maintaining of a fire company can be.

<hijack>

Anyone got $125,000 they want to give me? I want this.

</hijack>

Well, color me gobsmacked. The idea that the firefighters would literally stand there and watch the guy’s house burn is one of the more amazing things i’ve ever heard.

I guess the guy should have walked into the burning building. At least then they might have gotten off their asses.

I live out in the county, beyond the city limits, here there is a municipal fire department. My area is served by a volunteer fire department. They do regular fund-raising and also do annual door-to-door solicitation. From what I understand, if you have an emergency they respond to, they will respond whether you’ve donated or not, but if you aren’t a contributor they will charge you for the service. From what I’ve been told, if you’re charged the fee, you can claim it on your homeowner’s insurance, so you just have to pay a deductible. Still, most people understand that they have to support the service if they want it available. My volunteer crew has a rating just one level below the municipal fire department. My insurance company reduced my rates as my VFD’s rating improved.

StG