No, nothing barbaric about this (death penalty rant)

[Cheesesteak]

@Debaser

Let’s fix what went wrong and use a better method if needed.

IMO what went wrong wasn’t the chemicals, it was the eagerness to kill this guy, despite not having the right chemicals available.

[Clothahump]

@iiandyiiii

I think there are two main reasons, one bad and one good – the bad reason is just politics and optics: the idea that an injection is somehow less barbaric and violent, and more civilized, than a bullet to the brain. The good reason is that someone has to do be the executioner: I think that it’s very likely that shooting multiple people in the back of the head would be far, far more damaging to one’s psyche than injecting multiple people with drugs.

As far as the psyche damage goes, I would think it would be quite easy to modify an electric chair to have a firearm that could be discharged electronically. Strap the guy in, adjust the muzzle to the correct location, give the signal. Three people push buttons, but only one of them works, kinda like a firing squad loading up with at least one blank cartridge.

[Clothahump]

@Der_Trihs

But it isn’t about actually killing someone painlessly. It’s about making it look like he’s being killed painlessly, in a neat, sanitized pseudo-medical way that looks as little like killing as possible. Shooting someone in the head with a big bullet is bloody, doesn’t look at all neat & clinical, and in general looks like exactly what it is: killing someone. And we don’t want that.

Well, that is a major problem in and of itself. We gotta be all politically correct and shit, and tiptoe around it. There is a solution: man up.

[Happy_Fun_Ball]

@jimbuff314

Sorry. Mixed up the dead guy and the not-yet-dead guy a bit.

This guy WAS a rapist. He did not rape the murder victim, though he did rape the murder victim’s friend.

[Emiliana]

It appears the problem was the injection itself and not the chemicals per se. The vein exploded.

[OneCentStamp]

@Emiliana

It appears the problem was the injection itself and not the chemicals per se. The vein exploded.

Veins, plural. IVs are placed into both arms and each IV delivers what would be a lethal dose by itself. Redundancy. Belt n’ braces. And they still managed to fuck it up.

[The_Second_Stone]

@Bricker

You call out a great many practices, and I don’t share your opinions on most of them.

So this country can continue debating how we should best handle wealth, or the poor.

But are you saying that these issues must be resolved before we can address the death penalty? Or can we say that while we don’t agree about wealth and the poor, we certainly agree that killing people who are already imprisoned for their crimes is a barbaric and horrible thing for a state to do?

I am against the death penalty. I would be against it for Hitler. It makes us a more barbaric people and it hardens our hearts and dehumanizes us. That doesn’t mean that I don’t have a monster inside that gets so angry that I imagine killing people myself, or that I don’t occasionally get so outraged that I momentarily waver, but in no calm moment of reflection does it ever seem like a good idea for the US to have a death penalty.

[John_Mace]

@Emiliana

It appears the problem was the injection itself and not the chemicals per se. The vein exploded.

@OneCentStamp

Veins, plural. IVs are placed into both arms and each IV delivers what would be a lethal dose by itself. Redundancy. Belt n’ braces. And they still managed to fuck it up.

I’d be wary of drawing conclusions from the first news reports about this. It would not surprise me if the facts “evolve” over time.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Inner_Stickler

On a purely practical level, I don’t understand how hard it is to hire a chemist to whip up big batches of midazolam and sodium thiopental and get someone to teach a few guards the basics of hypodermics.
It is almost more embarrassing that not only are we so inept as to feel we need to kill people who are not fit for society, but also we cannot even manage to kill them quickly and with a minimum of fuss.

@Bozuit

Bullshit. No experimentation is necessary. I’m not a pharmacist, doctor or anything remotely close to it, but if the State of Oklahoma really can’t figure out how to kill someone with drugs more effectively than that, I’ll use my super over-80 IQ to come up with some suggestions.

Yeah! Where’s Fred Leuchter? I bet he could (and would) help us out here.

[OneCentStamp]

@John_Mace

I’d be wary of drawing conclusions from the first news reports about this. It would not surprise me if the facts “evolve” over time.

I think that’s a fair call at this point.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@MrDibble

Is it? Doesn’t it violate the “cruel” in “cruel and unusual” if there is excessive, prolonged pain?

It has to be cruel and unusual. Somebody fucked up the process. That’s not unusual at all.

[/constitutional originalist]

[j666]

@jimbuff314

That said, clearly we are kidding ourselves to assert that there is any humane, relatively painless way to execute someone. So the question remains - are some crimes so horrific as to warrant the death penalty? Before this, I would have been inclined to say yes. Now, now not nearly so much.

Well, there is the guillotine; I’m convinced all the stories about the head blinking are legends encouraged by people who just don’t like the idea of a painless execution.

Theoretically, I would agree some crimes are so horrific as to warrant the death penalty for the criminal, but none enough to warrant the people imposing it.

In general, we are better than that; we should not use the death penalty. I am from Boston, btw. The 2013 Marathon did not change my mind.

That is theoretical; I am older and tired now, and if you want to kill people for the most heinous crimes, I will not oppose you, as long as I am perfectly certain the person the guilty.

Oh, and as long as you don’t use jackleg compounders for the drugs. Or whatever drugs happen to sound like they might work, maybe, though we might have to tweak them a bit.

I’m in the medical products industry; I can’t tell you how dirty this makes me feel.

[Baron_Greenback]

@Just_Asking_Questions

I’m opposed, too, but I would think a light sedative and pure carbon dioxide would be a lot less trouble, and less painful for the executee.

If a state has a death penalty, shoot at the base of the skull, quick and painless. I’m sure death-enthusiasts like Smapti would be willing to clean up the mess.

[Smapti]

@LibrarySpy

I assumed you were pro-death penalty. If that’s not the case, my apologies.

I can’t understand why people advocate for the death penalty when there are innocent people on death row. That should be a full stop for anyone.

The death penalty is not murder.

[elucidator]

@Clothahump

…There is a solution: man up.

Well, I would, but chiffon wrinkles so easily. Sure you understand.

[Smapti]

@Baron_Greenback

If a state has a death penalty, shoot at the base of the skull, quick and painless. I’m sure death-enthusiasts like Smapti would be willing to clean up the mess.

I’d prefer to bring back hangings, personally.

[zweisamkeit]

@Just_Asking_Questions

I’m opposed, too, but I would think a light sedative and pure carbon dioxide would be a lot less trouble, and less painful for the executee.

:eek: No no no no nonononono. The panic and fear experienced during suffocation is NOT from lack of oxygen, but from a build up of carbon dioxide:

In a seminar presented at the US Department of Agriculture on December 16, 2004, Dr. Mohan Raj, Senior Research Fellow in the Farm Animal Division of the School of Clinical Veterinary Science at the University of Bristol in England, described the effects of CO2 on the body.** CO2 induces breathlessness – a subjective distress in breathing known as dyspnea.** According to Dr. Raj, **dyspnea in both birds and mammals “activates brain regions associated with pain and induces an emotional response of panic.” **

This is because, while CO2 increases the rate and depth of breathing to expel CO2 from the lungs, breathing actually increases the intake of CO2, and thus the desire to breathe to expel the noxious CO2 gas causes slow, painful suffocation.

I am completely against the death penalty, but if we have it, suffocation by nitrogen or helium would be a “better” option, because the build up of these gases doesn’t cause pain and fear/panic like co2.

[j666]

May I just point out that death by lethal injection is unacceptable to Big Pharma, an industry that essentially requires people suffer? that historically experimented on ill people without their knowledge or consent? that aggressively opposes regulation, but has sought FDA intervention on this issue?

@Inner_Stickler

On a purely practical level, I don’t understand how hard it is to hire a chemist to whip up big batches of midazolam and sodium thiopental and get someone to teach a few guards the basics of hypodermics.

Good. That, apparently, qualifies you as warden or head of corrections in Oklahoma.

@Smapti

I’d prefer to bring back hangings, personally.

Done correctly, they should snap the neck instantly. Obviously too painless. Or we could just return to strangulation by the short drop, or beheading by the long drop. Very Goldilocks hangings are.

[Gray_Ghost]

@j666

May I just point out that death by lethal injection is unacceptable to Big Pharma, an industry that essentially requires people suffer? that historically experimented on ill people without their knowledge or consent? that aggressively opposes regulation, but has sought FDA intervention on this issue…

Is death unacceptable, or is it the being involved in never-ending litigation (and all the discovery headaches that go along with it) over being a party to capital punishment? If the latter, I can understand companies thinking the headache isn’t worth the additional business.

FWIW, I think this guy suffers just as much with the previous set of drugs, given they appear to have been injected mostly subcutaneously or otherwise outside of a major blood vessel. Had to be painful as hell for him, given the reports of “burning” from being administered potassium chloride IV.

[Guinastasia]

Actually, if I were going to be executed, I’d want to be beheaded. Chop-chop, over and done with, quick. But it’s messy as hell.

@Shodan

But therefore it is neither cruel nor unusual.

Regards,
Shodan

Slavery and child labor were once legal and Constitutional. But I don’t think you’d find very many people who would claim that they weren’t cruel or unusual.