No offence to US citizens, but I wouldn't live there in a pink fit!

The BBQ Pit
161

Ya know, I wish I was.

In debates before SA State Parliament in 1999, the Democrats fought hard to prevent compulsory school fees from being changed to compulsory materials and service charges. This was because in 1996, the solicitor-general warned the Government it was illegal for the state to charge “tuition fees” in its own schools. The Government responded by labelling the fees as materials and services charges, thereby bringing them under the classification of “goods and services”. On top of the redefinition, it legislated to make the fees compulsory. SA state schools now impose fees ranging from $50 to $450 a year to raise extra money for everything from books to car park maintenance.

The SA government was already feeling the heat. In 1998, legislation was introduced “which will result in fine defaulters no longer being imprisoned for failing to pay fines and expiation fees under a streamlined fine collection system focussing on the obligation of persons who are fined to pay.” It is at this point, my SO at the time, who was a SA teacher commented to me she knew of parents not just in the sytem for having refused to pay compulsory school fees, but other parents already in jail for failing to pay.

“Under the old system, imprisonment was the primary sanction for fine default, but this is outdated and inappropriate resulting in fines not being collected and people being imprisoned - not for serious crime, but for what is essentially a debt,” Mr Griffin says.

Prior to all this crap, a parent who did not pay compulsory school fees was subject to fines. A fine default led to jail time, not just because it was the “primary sanction” according to the state AG, but because the state wanted to make examples of some of the more vocal opponents. At the time SA made no distinction between those who did not pay fines as a result of traffic violations or those who failed to pay fines as a result of failure to pay compulsory school fees.

Today, under the compulsory materials and services charges, failure to pay means you can still pay fines, but you won’t go to jail under the state law. OTOH, by making the compulsory materials and services charges subject to the federal GST law, the state is shaking its hands of enforcement to some degree and making the federal government accountable as well. A parent who fails to pay the state compulsory mandatory materials and services charges is also failing to pay the mandatory federal GST as well.

South Australia is using the ATO to go after those who don’t pay the pseudo state compulsory school fees.

162

I’m confused about Kambukta’s perception that there’s a prevailing attitude that everyone either does or ought to want to live in the US. Uhhh…there is? Can’t say I’ve ever seen it, myself. Yeah, we’re kind of obnoxiously “Go USA” at times, but that’s a bit different, isn’t it?

163

Jeez, do we have a problem down here!! We, for the most part, actually are pleased that our taxes still manage to find their way back into a system that cares about its people (just, I must admit, atm). Lots of people here do think its a Good Thing. The fewer govt programs, the more the people fall through the cracks, the more desperation and subsequent social problems. I guess you are not one of those people, Weirddave, and I sincerely hope you don’t end up in a situation where you can’t get a job and have no family support. Can you tell us what would happen if you cannot pay your health insurance and you have a child with a disability, for instance? Or if you lost your job through illness and you had no insurance? (maybe your insurer had just gone belly up?)

I am sure the homeless, unemployed, mentally ill, etc living on the streets of the US in cardboard boxes are pleased to know they professional welfare addicts, as I am sure all people living in the desperate bottomless cycle of poverty do.

I am afraid that this obssessive individualist attitude expressed by yourself and sections of the US is one reason some people might not want to live there.

164

What auliya said…with the reiteration that our universal welfare provisions are becoming more selective and targetted as we adopt more aspects of the American model. This is resulting in greater poverty, homelessness and despair amongst those who, for whatever reason, lack the resources to ‘pull themselves up by the bootstraps’…hard to do when you have no boots.

165

What auliya said…with the reiteration that our universal welfare provisions are becoming more selective and targetted as we adopt more aspects of the American model. This is resulting in greater poverty, homelessness and despair amongst those who, for whatever reason, lack the resources to ‘pull themselves up by the bootstraps’…hard to do when you have no boots.

166

Just as I suspected Duckster. That’s an old story about one parent.

And there is no way that the ATO will go after debts owed to other bodies. They will chase their GST component but they cannot enforce the payment of money owed to other government bodies particularly not state bodies.

167

Duckster, you said you left Australian two years ago. The very cites you’ve dredged up proves that this statement:**

**is N/A since JULY 1998 – two years before you left our shores.

So why did you feel the need to speak in the present tense: “run pauper’s (sic) prisons today”; “taking parents to court”? Is it entirely possible that you were talking out of your arse?

I still haven’t seen any evidence that parents were jailed, in South Australia, or in any other state for failing to pay school fees.

BTW, we’re also still waiting for some backup for this bizarro-world assertion:

Here’s another contentious, unproven assertion:
**

[/bCite? :wink:

168

Exactly my point. I’m not saying one system is preferable to the other, just that, as with most European countries, Australia has a more Socialized form of government, and that’s a difference, one that seems foreign to many Americans.

Or, perhaps, are not dealing well with the fact that they now have to gasp get a job and support themselves!!!

169

Loaded I think you know I hold you in the highest esteem but I fear a little “patriotism” on your part is taking part here. You seemingly are backing up your Aussie friend, which is cool. However, I need to point out to you that absolutely no one has really come out to say that the character of kambuckta is in question here, except for a misplaced comment on trolling; which most of us know better than that. What’s been suggested, for the most part, is that she seriously needs to rethink why this thread may have touched off some concerns.

Don’t take offense but… is not exactly the way to start a civilized conversation. Granted that is something that I would use with a best friend to tell her that she’s fucking up her life, not in general conversation.

Here’s another example:

Let’s say I am at a client’s company party. I start out a conversation with a group of people, who are involved in say, construction. I begin my conversation with said people (being the computer person that I am) and say “No offense but, how could anyone stand hammering nails all day? I mean sheesh!”

There is little there that is any different than what kambuckta said. I would probably have insulted a lot of people and that wording would have been repeated over and over again through out the party to where I would probably be asked to leave.

While that’s an extreme example, it’s very similar.

Yes, her title was offensive to some and probably more than owned up to it but that’s her cross to bare. She’s played if off and pretended that wasn’t her intent. THEN, she comes back in to state that she completely meant that only to play it off with more fluff.

I apologize, I don’t mean to question her character but this thread really has opened my eyes up to more than her character but those that think we are a bunch of bumbling idiots here in the U.S.

That’s probably extreme but I am sick and tired of people giving us back handed anti-compliments and placing them in a facade of something else.

I was more than willing to go with the thread and not announce my opinion but the more I thought about it, the more I became annoyed. The more I became annoyed, the more I needed to say something only to learn another person had beat me to the punch.

Look, I don’t question anyone’s character here, I had mentioned that I felt she should have chosen a better way to express it. When she rebutted that with:

This bothered me even further.

I state, she has extreme distaste for the U.S. with no reasons explained. Her wording was an attempt to flip the bird at us but with a sweet smile on her face and batting her eyes, she even said as much with that quote above.

Look, I don’t give a shit if anyone wants to live in the US or not, we have more than enough people here as it is. It’s the wording of her title and then her later words that get my goat. She needs to own up to that, IMO, and come clean with it. Having her here as a citizen of the US does not matter to me or the 295,000,000 people here but her wording on a message board screams to me completely rude. I would gather that most (including US citizens) on this board would put up with that kind of title or sentiment if the topic had been “No offense to Australian citizens, but I wouldn’t live there if I was paid a billion dollars.” Whatever, the sentiment would be considered rude.

I don’t think she’s a bad person, I just consider her rude.

Yep, rude.

170

Should be – I even previewed damnit:

:smack:

171

I’m just proud of the fact that we don’t need to have anyone go without medical treatment. I’m proud of the fact that no one need go without schooling.

I may not even be at university studying if the HECS scheme was not in place, because uni’s so expensive. I think it’s great that people who would not have been able to get further education and as a result a better job are able to do so.

I think if we didn’t have these services, the “gap between rich and poor” would be huge. Enormous.

So, I do think these things are good things, yes!

172

We’re not all welfare addicts. We’re proud of the assistance we give battlers, and at the same time we despise bludgers (this is not a Harry Potter reference). Translated: we like helping those in genuine need, but we don’t like the people who take advantage of that generosity. Perhaps this goes back to the “mateship” mentioned in an earlier post.

173

A philanthropist in our midst.

I personally dislike intensely the notion of the ‘deserving poor’

Rather I think it is a societies responsibility to care for all its citizens as the need arises.

174

techchic68, you have managed to read far more into my OP and my subsequent posts than were ever there in the first place.

You stated: “she has extreme distaste for the U.S. with no reasons explained. Her wording was an attempt to flip the bird at us but with a sweet smile on her face and batting her eyes, she even said as much with that quote above”

The ONLY reason I have given for not wanting to live in the USA was that I felt it was ‘intimidating’. I do not, IN ANY FUCKING WAY hold an ‘extreme distaste’ for your country, as you have asserted. As I said in the OP, there is a great deal of nationalistic pride displayed by you and your countrymen, and for very good reason. The US has a helluva lot to be proud of. It’s just that I, and I reiterate the I, find that sort of nationalistic fervour alien. I do not think I could make my home in such a country. My more familiar ‘nationalism’ is more self-deprecating. I am not making any sort of value judgement against either yours or my style of patriotism, just noting the fucking differences. If that offends you, then tough luck.

Then you go on to add an example, of which…“No offense but, how could anyone stand hammering nails all day? I mean sheesh!” …was a part.

I was NOT asking how Americans could stand to live in their own country. If you want to continue the comparison PROPERLY, it should have been worded…"No offence to carpenters etc, but I could not stand hammering nails all day. (which is how the OP was actually worded if you want to take a proper look and get off your bloody high-horse). There are lots of things that I could not stand to be, and I generally admire those who have the perserverance and tolerance and talent to BE those things. It is not offensive at all, except in the way you have manipulated my words.

Look, if you feel some sort of gratification and satisfaction in being ‘offended’, then go ahead and do so. That’s fine with me. Except you are just reinforcing the self-righteous and smug superiority that has stereotyped Americans throughout the rest of the world. I have apologised for any offence felt even though there was no offence to the people of the US intended, but you have declined to accept such an apology. C’est la vie. G’night.

175

No, no, no. I didn’t say that you were. I said that the atitude of expecting the Govt. to provide for you rather than do it yourself is found among welfare addicts here, not in Oz. See my previous post for clarification.

176

If the italicised us indicates all Americans as a group, which I think it does in the context you gave, then no, I’m not disappointed in you. As has been said previously in this thread, America is a huge and complex entity, and trying to pin a “can’t take criticism” label on close to three hundred million individuals is silly and futile. I was just a little saddened that Dopers were this way inclined to such an extent. One of the ideals of this board (I think) is that it’s frank and in your face. I’d hate to log on one day and find myself agreeing with every post.

:embarrassedandflatteredsmiley: Pardon? There’s not one? Okay, I’ll make do with a :cool:

The “Aussie” part only extends as far as the fact that simple geographical proximity has enabled me to meet kambuckta in person. In the context of this thread, I was backing up my friend. Not my Aussie friend. If she’d come from Glasgow, I’d have acted the same. I know that sounds like bullshit, but trust me on this one. Australian-ness had bugger-all to do with it. I do love my country, but if you want to know “Stuff that Sucks About Australia”, just email me or start a thread - I’ll give you a list as long as your arm. Not wanting to be too “patriotic” is why I haven’t really joined in the Duckster pile-on.

I concede this point. You guys are pissed because “Don’t take offence but…” is in a similar mode to “Some of my best friends are gay…”. I understand how it could be received that way, but I’m sure that wasn’t the intention. I think kambuckta misjudged the situation here, but I also think I would have made the same error, knowing that this is a US board, and the topic was liable to be pretty flammable. I still respect kambuckta for having the courage to post an unpopular opinion, however it was worded. I wonder if the thread would have been received any differently, had the “disclaimer” section of the title been omitted.

As for my own opinion ( poor ol’ Loaded tries to find a way to word this…), I think that the attitude towards the US in most countries (industrialised, usually English speaking US allies, that is) is that we are not offended by your patriotism and flag-waving. To me, it seems a little foreign. I don’t think I could ever see myself doing that in regards to Australia, yet in many ways I admire it. It shows confidence in your country as well as pride. That’s pretty cool for mine. What I must say, however, is that there is another attitude which either exists in the US, or is perceived to exist in the US, and that is a subtle, hard to define feeling of “There are two types of people. Americans and those who wish they were”. I don’t for a minute think this is an all-pervasive attitude in your country (a similar one exists in segments of the Australian population too), but it does exist, and it does annoy non-Americans sometimes. All I ask is that, whether you feel this justified criticism or not, you understand that people get this impression of the USA, and I think that is what kambuckta was on about. A simple, “nope, we don’t think like that” would’ve been all that was needed.

Still, all in all, I can’t help liking you Yank bastards. :smiley:

177

kambuckta I personally don’t care where you live…As long as you keep sending the states Fosters. Swill or not I like a cold oil can in my paws. :smiley:

178

**Snugglebear, ** there’s a slab on the way. :smiley: