No One In the Presidential Line of Succession -- What Happens?

[zev_steinhardt]

What happens if there is no one in the Presidential Line of Succession?

Possible hypothetical examples:

During the State of the Union, someone bombs the capitol and assassinates the designated survivor.

During the inauguration, someone kills both the president and vice-president elect, along with the Speaker of the House and the Presdient Pro Temp of the Senate, and none of the new President’s cabinet officials have been confirmed yet.

I know that there is no provision for this in the Constitution, but might there be a law covering it somewhere in the US Code? And, if not, what, realistically, would happen?

Zev Steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

D’oh! Never mind… I just realized the answer myself.

The House would elect a new Speaker, who would then become President.

Zev Steinhardt

[boffking]

The outgoing cabinet officers are there until the new president fires them. They don’t necessarily leave the sane time the president does .

[Duckster]

@boffking

The outgoing cabinet officers are there until the new president fires them. They don’t necessarily leave the sane time the president does .

No, they all, but one, resign prior to the inauguration. Some have already resigned.
IIRC, there is one member of the Obama cabinet who does not resign prior to the inauguration. Under presidential succession, they become the president (designated survivor) if everyone else within the new administration and Congress bite the dust.

[friedo]

@Duckster

No, they all, but one, resign prior to the inauguration. Some have already resigned.

Incoming presidents will sometimes ask current cabinet officials to stay on for a while in order to aid the transition. For example, Obama asked Robert Gates to continue as Sec Def after Bush’s term, and he ended up staying well into Obama’s first term.

But Trump has been…rather hostile towards Obama’s political appointees, and it’s unlikely any of them have been asked to hang around.

[running_coach]

@friedo

Incoming presidents will sometimes ask current cabinet officials to stay on for a while in order to aid the transition. For example, Obama asked Robert Gates to continue as Sec Def after Bush’s term, and he ended up staying well into Obama’s first term.

But Trump has been…rather hostile towards Obama’s political appointees, and it’s unlikely any of them have been asked to hang around.

He even fired the parade announcer who has announced since 1957. By email.

[md2000]

@running_coach

He even fired the parade announcer who has announced since 1957. By email.

Obligatory Dilbert:
Pointy-Haired Boss: “What are you doing here? I thought I fired you last month.”

Confused Employee: “No, I think I’d remember that.”

PHB: “Did you check your email Junk folder?”

[md2000]

I assume if the entire house, senate, and cabinet is toast, then at least the governors can appoint senators immediately. Not sure what happens to the house, it could take a while (according to Designated Survivor) to hold new house elections.

So what’s the order of succession? 3rd is president Pro Tempore of the Senate, so I guess the question is how fast could the new senators elect one?

[Alley_Dweller]

@md2000

I assume if the entire house, senate, and cabinet is toast, then at least the governors can appoint senators immediately. Not sure what happens to the house, it could take a while (according to Designated Survivor) to hold new house elections.

So what’s the order of succession? 3rd is president Pro Tempore of the Senate, so I guess the question is how fast could the new senators elect one?

Due to a quirk in the Senate rules, one Senator can constitute a quorum if nobody asks for a quorum call. (See NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS BOARD v. NOEL CANNING ET AL., (2014).) So all you have to do is ask the governor of Virginia (or another nearby state) to appoint a Senator, have the Senator gavel the Senate into session, and have himself elected President Pro Tempore by unanimous consent.

[TSBG]

The rules on Senatorial replacements vary by state–some require a special election, but some governors can indeed appoint replacements.

Now, what if the National Governors’ Association was holding a meeting at the same time and it got blown up too???

[jnglmassiv]

I was just talking to a coworker about this today. If a tragedy were to kill everyone at the inauguration and no existing (carried over to the new Administration from the old) Cabinet members or elected succession folks survived, the highest eligible non-political official at State would become President. That official is Under-Secretary for Political Affairs, Tom Shannon.

m.hawaiinewsnow.com/hawaiinewsnow/pm_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=od:QOfSDdu3

[jtur88]

@Duckster

No, they all, but one, resign prior to the inauguration. Some have already resigned.
IIRC, there is one member of the Obama cabinet who does not resign prior to the inauguration. Under presidential succession, they become the president (designated survivor) if everyone else within the new administration and Congress bite the dust.

What are the odds that they will all die on the same day . . . but HE won’t?

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@jnglmassiv

I was just talking to a coworker about this today. If a tragedy were to kill everyone at the inauguration and no existing (carried over to the new Administration from the old) Cabinet members or elected succession folks survived, the highest eligible non-political official at State would become President. That official is Under-Secretary for Political Affairs, Tom Shannon.

m.hawaiinewsnow.com/hawaiinewsnow/pm_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=od:QOfSDdu3

That story says nothing about the State Dept. I think you need a better source, if you can find one. I’ve never heard this before.

[dalej42]

One ficitonal nuclear war story that I read said the presidential order of succession had the governors of the states next in line for succession if all those in the regular line succession were dead. You’d start with the governor of Delaware and then go down the list to Hawaii. While this was a work of fiction, it’s actually a very reasonable method to use.

[Just_Asking_Questions]

@jnglmassiv

I was just talking to a coworker about this today. If a tragedy were to kill everyone at the inauguration and no existing (carried over to the new Administration from the old) Cabinet members or elected succession folks survived, the highest eligible non-political official at State would become President. That official is Under-Secretary for Political Affairs, Tom Shannon.

m.hawaiinewsnow.com/hawaiinewsnow/pm_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=od:QOfSDdu3

No, the designated survivor would be President. They are used for inaugurations as well as the SotU.

[Alley_Dweller]

@Exapno_Mapcase

That story says nothing about the State Dept. I think you need a better source, if you can find one. I’ve never heard this before.

You have to click on “FULL STORY” just above the horizontal line:

Therefore, the current secretary of state John Kerry, who would be the first cabinet secretary in the line of succession, wouldn’t be in place after Trump is inaugurated at noon. Trump’s pick for secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, may not be confirmed for another week or two.

The job would fall to the highest ranking non-political official in the department Friday afternoon, according to State department sources. That person would be the Under-Secretary for Political Affairs, Tom Shannon.

"One of the most obscure possibilities is that someone who is an acting secretary of state, someone lower down the line in the State department today, assumes the acting secretary of state position, is in the line, and the worst happens. And that person becomes president - at least for a while,” Fortier said.

Note that the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 says:

Subsection (d) of this section shall apply only to officers appointed, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, prior to the time of the death, resignation, removal from office, inability, or failure to qualify, of the President pro tempore, and only to officers not under impeachment by the House of Representatives at the time the powers and duties of the office of President devolve upon them.

I don’t think that an acting Secretary of State, who was not confirmed to the position with the advice and consent of the Senate would qualify.

[Evan_Drake]

I seem to remember this was a popular theme for immensely cheap quickie American paperbacks back in the '90s.

[iamthewalrus_3]

@Alley_Dweller

Due to a quirk in the Senate rules, one Senator can constitute a quorum if nobody asks for a quorum call. (See NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS BOARD v. NOEL CANNING ET AL., (2014).) So all you have to do is ask the governor of Virginia (or another nearby state) to appoint a Senator, have the Senator gavel the Senate into session, and have himself elected President Pro Tempore by unanimous consent.

Would this effectively mean that the governor who was physically closest to the capital building would appoint himself as Senator and thus President.

What happens if Washington DC is physically destroyed (which I have to think is fairly likely in the given hypothetical where everyone in the Federal government is dead). Where does the newly appointed Senator call the Senate into session?

Also, do the Senate rules persist a period with no Senators? My understanding was that the House starts over with a clean slate because it’s an entirely new House, but the Senate keeps its rules around because the Senate is a continuation of the previous body. That wouldn’t be true any more in this scenario either.

[Colibri]

@TSBG

The rules on Senatorial replacements vary by state–some require a special election, but some governors can indeed appoint replacement

46 states allow state governors to appoint replacement Senators at least temporarily,although there are restrictions in some cases.

@md2000

I assume if the entire house, senate, and cabinet is toast, then at least the governors can appoint senators immediately. Not sure what happens to the house, it could take a while (according to Designated Survivor) to hold new house elections.

In contrast, Representatives must be elected; they can’t be appointed.

This means that most of the Federal government can be reconstituted by appointment and succession. Governors can appoint Senators, who can elect a President pro tem who then becomes President. The new president can appoint new Cabinet members, who would be confirmed by the Senate.

However, accession of a new Vice President would have to await the election of a new House, since the VP has to be confirmed by both houses, not just the Senate.

[Alley_Dweller]

@iamthewalrus_3

Would this effectively mean that the governor who was physically closest to the capital building would appoint himself as Senator and thus President.

I hadn’t thought of that. I like the way your mind works.

What happens if Washington DC is physically destroyed (which I have to think is fairly likely in the given hypothetical where everyone in the Federal government is dead). Where does the newly appointed Senator call the Senate into session?

Good question. Don’t know.

Also, do the Senate rules persist a period with no Senators? My understanding was that the House starts over with a clean slate because it’s an entirely new House, but the Senate keeps its rules around because the Senate is a continuation of the previous body. That wouldn’t be true any more in this scenario either.

Don’t really know, but I would like to point out that just because the original justification for a practice/law/rule no longer applies, that doesn’t mean that the practice/law/rule no longer applies.