Actually my point was that he has no argument. The above, while quite accurate, isn’t an argument in favour of the Israeli hardlines so beloved by Paul, it is at best a few segments of a convoluted history. The problem is as you say that he is unwilling to recognize the present reality. So, if he feels so strongly about this issue I for one would prefer to see coherent arguments rather than periodic, emotionally-prompted bashings and rants.
Or Paul can continue to dwell on the injustices he perceives to have suffered, gloss over the injustices perceived to be committed by those who think as he does, air his agenda on message boards, and get nowhere at all.
Paul, there are 3.2 million people living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They are Muslims (mostly) and they are Arabs – but “Arab” is considered the name of a multinational ethnocultural group, not a nationality. These people are not Syrians, they’re not Egyptians, they’re not Jordanians, and they’re sure as hell not Israelis. What makes you think “Palestinians” isn’t the best name for them?
Paul’s argument - and he’s not the only person who uses it; in fact I’d say he got it off some hardline site - annoys the tits off me.
It’s totally irrelevant.
Paul, call them what you like. Call them bananamuffins, call them wankers, call them lknlkjbnoius if you want. They call themselves Palestinian, and before that, the British mandate called them Palestinian.
What does it matter? You think a lack of name alters their claims to the land they and their forebears live/d on?
I’m amazed that you have such a monocular view of the issues. One good thing the SDMB has done for me is to augment my comprehension of arguments with which I disagree. When even the Israelis on the board are asking you not to be on their side, I suspect it’s time for you to take a deep breath, and do some empathy exercises.
This is a lousy excuse for not having a good reason why I’m wrong.
The “Palestinian” identity is a recent creation. Before then, anyone using the word “Palestinian” could be referring to either Jews or Christians or Muslims in what was then called British Mandate Palestine. Generally the Muslims there thought of themselves as Syrians or Egyptians or Jordanians, though, so most of the “Palestinians” in those days were actually Jews. :dubious:
The land that their forbears moved to after the Jews started creating economic opportinities and revitalizing the land. A weed wouldn’t grow in that desert before the Jews got there and started farming it with modern agriculture.
Besides, the Jews’ forebears lived in Judea and Samaria (what some call “the West Bank.”) They lived there long before a fictional “Palestinian” people did. Why don’t they have a right to live in the settlements?
If you want to talk about ethnic cleansing, I’ll bring up the fact that right now Jews are being kicked out of settlements just because they’re Jewish. That sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.
Same answer to each point the gobbledegook you just posted.
Are you a) claiming there were no Arab peoples in the region prior to the influx of Zionists in the 19th century? (And even if this nonsense were true, what of it - did Idi Amin have the right to kick all ethnic Indian immigrants out of Uganda?) and b) claiming that ethnic Arabs only entered the Occupied territories after the Israeli invasion?
You’re going back thousands of years. There were multiple tribes living in the area. I’m talking about stuff that happened in the 20th century.
Again, I’m talking about stuff that happened in the 20th century. You can stick a load of illegal settlements in someone else’s territory and then whine ‘ethnic cleansing’ a couple of decades later all you like; still don’t make the settlement policy right. Anyway, they’re not being kicked out because they’re Jewish, they’re being kicked out because they’re Israeli. They’re being removed (from Gaza anyway) by the Israeli government because they’re one of many major impediments to peace.
Completely inaccurate. Palestine had lots of arable land, and was a major exporter of citrus in the region in the 19th century up through WWI. It was also very rich with grains and various vegetables.
They do have a right, they just have to live under Palestinian law, which doesn’t seem like something they want to do.
They’re being kicked out of settlements by the Israeli government. They can stay in the settlements if they want, they just won’t be under the protection of Israel anymore and will be under the authority of the Palestinians.
A group of us Dopers in the US move ourselves into say, Quebec. And then, we DEMAND that the US government consider that area “US Territory” or “settlements”, and that the Canadian government has no control over the area.
Or, say a group of Englishmen move themselves into say, Manhoic land, demand that the English government consider that area “English territory”, and that the Manhoic government has no control over the area.
And then we fast forward 300 years, and I’m sitting in my apartment in Northern Virginia, and there aren’t any Manhoics around. I’m an American, and the reason my country is around is because it expelled or killed its native inhabitants and took their land. So, I can’t really fault the Israelis for doing the same thing.
However, that being said, I don’t think the settlements are a good idea.
SO it would be perefectly acceptable for the Arabs to kill or expel the Israelis in a simlair fashion then? Or if I saw a house I liked it would be fine to kill or throw out the occupant?
What really annoys the tits off me, to borrow an apt expression, is the insistence by certain leftwing or anti-Israeli debaters to use Nazi terminology or compare Israelis with Nazis, Israel with NaziGermany etc… I see it all the time. Can’t walk down the street without some sticker “David star” = “Swastika”. Zionism = Nazism or something. Cheap demagogy! If you really want an open debate you don’t start out by calling the other side the worst thing imaginable.
For the analogy to really work, we would have to move onto reservations with the intent of claiming what little land they have left, shut down the tribal governments, close the casinos, and build walls for “protection” that make it difficult for them to get supplies.
Czarcasm, that was your post number (6)666! I always did think the anti-Christ would be ironic…
However, you’d also need things like Indian shamans proudly declaring how they’re going to visit the worst bloodbath on you since Yellow-Eagel wiped out the Black Foots, suicide squaws blowing up McDonalds.
You think stupid analogies and having your ass permantly stuck in yesterday is going to help the situation any?
Well, since we’re already way past any resemblance with reality why not go all the way and say something about the Israeli Deathstar, Sharon Vader, the oppressed Palestinian teddy bears and lo and behold! Arafat Holy-Land Walker master of the terror^M^M^M^M^M^M force.