If the Iraqis deserve freedom, then why not the Palestinians?

Great Debates
1

Like many of you I watched the throngs of Iraqis here and abroad celebrate the liberation of a peoples from a tyrant. I saw them wave American flags and hold signs thanking us for their freedom. Although I know the the war isn’t even close to over yet, I was happy to see the Iraqis celebrate but my enthusiam was tempered by some Iraqis who mentioned that their long-antcipated freedom came too late to save a loved one or to spare them over two decades worth of fear and suffering.

Then I thought, if this could happen in Iraq, which was considered not at all friendly to the US due to our role in failed uprisings and sanctions, why can’t this happen with the Palestinians? Why can’t the Palestinians have their freedom and self-determination too? They’ve been asking for it for what, over 40 years now? Why wait anymore? Why should the Palestinians suffer because of what Arafat does or did do? We are not punishing the Iraqis because Saddam’s is or was a bastard. And say what you want about the occupation. My opinion is, just as the occupation doesn’t justify terrorism, terrorism doesn’t justify the occupation. Should we have let South Africa continue suppressing black Africans because the ANC committed acts of terrorism and Mandela tried to sabotage the SA government? And, if you want to disempower Hamas and the other terrorist organizations, then for God’s sake don’t let them think that by blowing themselves up they can effectively destroy any peace process they happen to get their panties in twist over (That Mitzna guy had the right idea. Too bad he wasn’t elected.).

In 2005, I hope to be sitting in my living room, watching the throngs of Palestians here and abroad celebrate their liberation waving American flags and holding signs thanking us, wondering as I did back in 2003, “Why didn’t we do this sooner?”

Anyway, enough of my rambling. Again, if the Iraqis deserve freedom and the right to self-determination, then why not the Palestinians?

2

Not that I don’t think Palestine isn’t a terrorist state, but they are hardly in the same boat as Iraq.

Let me also say that just because we might not help everyone doesn’t mean we shouldn’t help anyone. I help feed some poor families but I can’t feed them all, so does that mean I shouldn’t help any of them?

*Yes I know someone will chime in with the same old tired mantra about how Palestine doesn’t have any oil and we are so tied to Israel blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda…

3

I think the main difference here is that we are actually paying Israel, their occupiers, billions of dollars a year in aid.

We don’t even have to invade. Just threaten to cut of Israel from sucking on the U.S teat… maybe that might persuade them to pull out.

4

Beats me.

5

The occupied territories don’t have any oil and the Israeli lobby is too powerful.

:wink:

6

Goes back to the question of why we support Isreal really. After all, it would look really bad if we start bombing our friends, even if they are tyrants.

7

Nail head meets hammer.

8

Well, if for no other reason, the only people that the Palestinians hate more than the Israelis are the U.S. So it’s not like anyone would be flinging flowers at Marines if the U.S. showed up in force.

Further, the U.S. has repeatedly tried to broker deals between Israel and the Palestinians. Several of these deals, favorable to the Palestinians, have been torpedoed by the more radical Palestinian groups. So one could argue that they have failed to take advantage of what self-determination they have.

(And given the number of Palestinians who went to Iraq to fight against the U.S. troops, I can’t imagine that we’re feeling all that kindly inclined towards them.)

9

Jesus:

I’m not clear on what you’re proposing. What is the method by which the Palestinians would acheive this freedom? Your analogy with Iraq seems to imply that the US would invade, what, Israel or just the “occupied territories” and topple, what, Arafat? I mus tbe missing something.

The Palestinians need to win peace thru honest negotiations with Israel. And as much as I would like to feel sorry for them, the images of them dancing with pictures of Saddam during both Gulf Wars sticks in my mind and I just shake my head in disbelief.

10

Honestly, I don’t believe we’ll see even a chance of a decent peace agreement until Arafat dies or gets off the stage. I lost all patience with the whole thing after 2000, so I’m at the point where I don’t care anymore. America will probably have to keep trying to help, but I don’t think we can do much.

11

Yeah, me, too, “Huh?” What would we invade in order to liberate Palestine? Jerusalem? Conquer Jerusalem and make the Israelis concede the requisite territory to the Palestinians at gunpoint?

And we would want to do this…why?

And we would enforce it…how? Because the Palestinians, with no real army or other resources, fer damn sure wouldn’t be able to hold it against the entire Israeli army, once Uncle Sam’s troops packed up their baby wipes and their smokeless tobacco and went back to Fort Bliss. What would stop Israel from simply strolling over and taking it all back again? We’d have to annihilate Israel, is what it would take.

Or else we’d have to outfit the Palestinians with their own army before we left, tanks and guns and all, and training in how to use them. Which also seems kinda strange, if the long-term goal is supposed to be “Peace in the Mideast”.

Two drunks are brawling in the parking lot.

Scenario 1: Mr. Helpful Bystander steps in, shoots Drunk #1 through the head, says to Drunk #2, “There, now, you’re free.”

Scenario 2: Mr. Helpful Bystander steps in, whomps Drunk #1 upside the head, gives Drunk #2 a gun, says, “Now, fight fair, you two”, and leaves.

What am I missing?

12

Palestine needs to be free, even if it means free to fail. The people there have to lose all their reasons for not running a successful society, so that they have to look inward and fix themselves.

To that end, there needs to be a viable Palestinian state. A real one, and not pieces choppsed up and controlled.

However, Israel has legitimate security concerns as well. In particular, Hezbollah, an unstable Lebanon, Syria, and Iran. Have a look at a map of Israel - A significant chunk of Israel is sandwiched between Palestine and Syria, with a very narrow, undefensible corridor connecting it back to Israel.

This is where an American military presence in the Middle East can be a big help. The U.S. can demand that Syria deal with Hezbollah, or even move into Lebanon and clean house.

A stable Lebanon and Israeli security guarantees are the key to Israel agreeing to recognize an independent Palestinian state. This was another reason to support the Iraq war - it gave the U.S. a lever to lean on Syria and Middle East terrorism, and it deprived the terrorist community with an awful lot of aid from Iraq, and a powerful champion in Saddam Hussein.

That’s what I hope comes out of all this - a moderate, free Iraq, a free Palestine, a moderate Egypt, Jordan, and Iran (with a potential democracy in Iran).

13

Here’s an idea: THE U.S. SHOULD INVADE ISRAEL and force the Isrealis, not to grant independence to the occupied territories, but to ANNEX them and grant all Palestinian Arabs full Israeli citizenship, complete with voting rights and representation in the Knessit. Call it “Operation Shotgun Wedding.”

I see no other permanent, final solution to the problem. Yes, I know the phrase “final solution” is bound to raise hackles in this context, but nothing else fits; a “final solution” is absolutely necessary, and better the one I’m proposing than the alternative “final solution,” which some Israeli extremists support, of ethnically cleansing the territories of Palestinians and sending them all to Jordan or wherever.

A separate Palestinian state, even if nominally independent, would always be at Israel’s mercy and relations between them would always be bitter. Besides, if the territories are granted their independence, what happens to all those Jewish settlers and settlements there? They would have to be uprooted and relocated to Israel proper, like the Sinai settlers after Israel made peace with Egypt; or else they would stay, as a house minority in the Palestinian Republic, and Israel would demand the right to send troops into Palestine whenever it deemed that necessary to protect the settlers from persecution – which would be inevitable.

A united Israel/Palestine, of course, would no longer be a Jewish state, it would be a Jewish-Arab state. I welcome that; a state based on religious identity is an abomination to the modern world, even if that religious identity is effectively coterminous with an ethnic-national identity. Votes in the new Knessit would be roughly equally split between the two groups, with the Jews holding a slight majority, until the Arabs outnumber them through more prolific breeding, which shouldn’t take many more years. And the Palestinians in the Knessit no doubt would insist on a parallel Law of Return, entitling all Palestinians who have fled since Israel’s creation to come back to stay. Palestinians would be integrated into every unit of the Israeli Army, which would make it impossible to use that army as a tool to oppress Palestinians. All this presents obvious complications and points of further strife.

On the bright side, Jews and Arabs would finally be sharing power and working out political accommodations regarding the land they must, inevitably, share. Both sides could finally feel SAFE. They could finally become something approaching a normal country and get on with the normal business of living their daily lives, making themselves prosperous and exploiting tourists. The political power of the rabbis in Israel would be sharply reduced, as it should be. All expressions of Jewish law in public law would be wiped off the books, and the Shari’a would not replace them. Better still, the Palestinian issue would finally cease to afflict relations between the Islamic world and the West. Osama bin Laden would no longer have an issue with which to rile up the world’s Arabs. Al Qaeda might simply die out from lack of interest.

I just wish we could come up with some excuse to invade a country that has been our ally since 1948. It really would be the best thing we could do for them.

14

I kinda like it. Congrats on 100

15

Sam: Even if you eliminated the West Bank settlements, you still get a Palestinian state chopped up into 3 pieces. Do you really think Israel would agree to a contiguous Palestinian state? Wouldn’t that mean giving up part of Israel proper or hearding all the P’s into the West Bank?

16

No there will still be a division between the West Bank and Gaza. But if you look at a map of the original proposal for a Palestinian state, it was pretty fractured.

The point was that Israel wouldn’t allow an independent Palestine now, because that puts the strip of land that connects between the West Bank and the Ocean at risk.

But if Palestine can be stabilized, and the threat from Hezbollah, Iran, and Syria kept in check, then Israel will be willing to agree to a viable Palestinian state, IMO. Especially if leaned on by the U.S.

But I hope everyone realizes that if the U.S. leans on Israel to sign an agreement, the burden of Israel’s security is going to fall squarely on the U.S’s shoulders, which will increase oeerall U.S. involvement in the Middle East. There are no easy solutions.

17

Hasn’t the US, for many years, given more aid to Isreal than to any other county? I have to think that anything the Isreali government does, they do with the approval of the US government. That is, if our government disapproved of anything the Isreali government was doing, we’d tell them to cut it out – and they would cut it out.

18

Unfortunately, there aren’t even any difficult solutions.

Yeah, I’ve seen the original map. It’s actually pretty interesting. Too bad they couldn’t’ve just drawn a line across the mid section.

The one state solution (Israel/Paelstine) is kind of intruiging. I don’t see it having a snowballs chance in hell, but it’s probably the only real way to end this.

19

First as to the premise: Yeah, this is all about liberating the Iraqi people. Uh huh. Bush was clear when he was running for office(discussing visavis Africa) The US is not around to save the world. The US will get involved when US interests are at stake and for the sake of US interests. “Free” the Palestinians? How about the Saudi people? The hypocricy of the premise comes closes the hypocricy of the Bush administration.

Now then, as to practical discussion about Israel/PA.

No amount of US pressure would make Israel do anything that they percieved was a security risk and the conflict long predates Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza. Gaza aint gonna be contiguous with the West Bank. The deal on the table at CD2, (second hand reports from Gush Shalom not withstanding) according to anyone who was actually there and was willing to talk about it, was for a contiguous state excluding Gaza.

Annexation would be unacceptable to the Palestinians and to Israelis both. Long term the only solution will be to get past some egos and past grudges and inconsequential territorial bickering over 1 to 3 % of the land and focus on revenue sharing and economic co-ventures to develop both economies. A Palestinian state without Israeli industrial investment and partnering would an entity forever requiring handouts from the international community. Israel would benefit not only from peace but from the increased tourist industry and the workforce. The point on the horizon has to be some sort of federation with strong regional control for the parts.

Unfortunately all I hear is the old New Englander saying “You can’t there from here.”

20

[quote]
A united Israel/Palestine, of course, would no longer be a Jewish state, it would be a Jewish-Arab state.

[quote]

Yeah. Then the Palestinians get started on finishing Hitler’s work. These are not nice people, they hate Jews, and they do NOT intend to “share power” peacefully.

Look, I don’t realy give a fat damn about the Palestinians aanymore. Once, perhaps, I did. But they’ve been shtting in their own backyard just to drive down the other guy’s property value. This “country” is run by a bunch of power-hungry murdering thugs. They dole out social welfare to keep the power base, and use terrorism to build popularity. Every party in Palestine is at it.

When the people say enough is enough, I’ll be there. Until then, for as long as they act a pathetic, bestial child-nation, they can rot in their own graves. My sympathy is at an end. They are the only ones who can improve their fate.