…the OP never specified the US. The Tooth was speaking in the context of where he lives.
Besides: isn’t it Federal law in the US the Restaurant is required to make up the pay to ensure the waiter gets minimum wage if they don’t make enough in tips?
I said ‘other’, primarily because I go to a restaurant primarily for the cuisine. It wouldn’t occur to me to not tip; I would probably end up tipping at your ‘No Tip Required’ restaurant out of sheer habit.
So, maybe your tipless restaurant has great cuisine, maybe it has awful cuisine - that’s what’s going to get me in for the first visit, and maybe back for more. Other than that, it doesn’t matter to me in the least.
Like in Japan. Most of the situations calling for a tip in the US do not expect one in Japan; one exception I seem to remember (but I’m not sure) is cab drivers.
Anyway, the culture there seems to be that one takes pride in doing a good job and if one is getting a living wage that should be enough to guarantee good service.
One does not always get good service, of course, although I think these occasions are rare. In those cases I expect the patrons vote with their feet by not coming back.
I liked that system when I lived there, although it took a few minutes to get used to it.
Roddy
Not if he was replying to Left Hand of Dorkness, who made it very clear that he was talking about the rational expectation of tipping as a standard aspect of patronizing restaurants (as it is in the US), rather than as an occasional additional reward for exceptional service (as it is in many other cultures).
Sure, if you don’t routinely tip in cultures where routine tipping is not a well-established custom, there’s nothing wrong with that. If you don’t routinely tip in cultures where routine tipping is a well-established custom, on the other hand, you’re free-riding the system.
I don’t tip.
–Mr. Pink
ETA: Seriously, though, I’m a very good tipper at the places I frequent. And if I don’t frequent a place, it’s because the food isn’t that good. An 18% increase would be a net cost savings for me, as I typically tip at least 20%. But I also try and tip in cash, so I think the server loses doubly in the new system, at least on my tab. I like to be able to pay a bit more for good service, so I like the current system just fine.
Four US states do not allow restaurants to offset the servers’ wage with tips. Of course, Americans tip by habit, so waitstaff still get those tips. Curiously, one national chain seems to strongly object to paying their servers, so there are none of the “old country store” places in those states.
I voted Other - I personally would love to see this be the norm, but I don’t believe a restaurant’s success or failure would turn on this concept. If the food and service were really good, it would be a hit.
While I’d happily do away with tips in favor of living wages for waitstaff and bar staff, I did notice on my last trip to England that the bartenders at a busy bar move much more quickly in America than they do across the pond. English beer was cheaper once you figured in the lack of a tip, but you waited more.
“What’s this? I didn’t order a blend!”
No, it’s “I don’t tip because society says I have to. Alright, I mean I’ll tip if somebody really deserves a tip. If they really put forth the effort I’ll give 'em something extra. But I mean this tipping automatically, it’s for the birds. I mean as far as I’m concerned they’re just doing their jobs.”
I tip as tips are warranted. But for good service. Not because society says I have to. If the menu price includes a tip already then that’s the menu price and that’s what I pay. But as the man said, tipping automatically is for the birds.
To be honest, I’m kind of baffled at the idea that restauranteurs are allowed to shaft their staff in the expectation I’ll make up the difference. As Mr. Pink elucidates so eloquently, that ain’t my fault.
And coffee needs to be refilled, what, six times?
If you’re following your personal “tipping optional” policy in a society which DOES say you have to—i.e., one where routine tipping is customary and server pay scales reflect that custom—then you’re freeloading.
The fact that other patrons routinely tip means that the menu prices of what you order are lower than they otherwise would be, because the restaurant owners are paying servers lower wages than they otherwise would. So you’re essentially cadging discounts on your bill from other diners’ tips.
Your refusal to tip the expected amount is not a bravely independent defiance of social convention, but just unethically taking advantage not only of servers but of other patrons.
[QUOTE=The Tooth]
To be honest, I’m kind of baffled at the idea that restauranteurs are allowed to shaft their staff in the expectation I’ll make up the difference.
[/QUOTE]
If you don’t like the “routine tipping” system (and I don’t blame you for not liking it), then you don’t have to patronize restaurants that practice it. But if you do eat in restaurants where you know routine tipping is expected and the staff’s pay policies are set up to reflect that, then you should tip in accordance with expectations. Or at the very least, as Left Hand of Dorkness points out, you should be honest about your disdain for the “routine tipping” system right up front as soon as you ask for a table.
It’s easy to swagger on an anonymous message board about your bold independence in refusing to tip just because “society says you have to”. But when you actually go to a restaurant, if you timidly try to blend in with the majority and hope the server won’t spot you as a non-tipper until you’ve finished eating and got safely away, you don’t look as bold and independent as you think you do.
I would prefer to pay (for example) $27 for my dinner and be done with it than pay $22 and a $5 tip PROVIDED the waitstaff is making a reasonable wage, however I have never met a waiter or waitress who would agree. All of the ones I know brag about how much they make an hour, and then turn right around and whine how little they nake on their paychecks ( I only get 2.13 an hour, you are grinding the faces of the poor when you give me 15% instead of 20%) which is it it can’t be both for the same person.
That’s one of the (many) reasons it makes sense to dislike the “routine tipping” system so typical of US restaurants.
But if people really want to change the system, they should stay out of the restaurants that practice it. If the restaurant OWNERS start losing money because diners are tired of tipping expectations and want a simpler and fairer billing system, then the system will change. If free-riders just keep on providing the owners’ profits while stiffing the servers’ wages, the owners have little incentive to change anything.
Bollocks. Restauranteurs who pay their staff like they’re babysitting in the late 1970’s are freeloading. I’m paying the price requested. I’ll pay the staff more as I see fit. Again, that’s as I see fit.
No, I’m essentially paying the bill in full.
That’s nonsense. I’m not the one paying my employees $2/hour. If a restaurant owner wants his staff to earn more money, he should raise their wages.
I tip to reward good service (often and reasonably, thankyouverymuch). I don’t tip to make up for someone else’s refusal to pay their staff adequately. And I would consider any hassle over the matter from restaurant staff to be harassment. A tip is a bonus, nothing more.
It should be, in theory. It’s not, in American restaurant practice (at least in most locations). I’m not exactly sure how we settled on such a weird way of paying waitstaff, but here we are. If you can’t afford or don’t tip, don’t eat out. (Although I wouldn’t feel bad about it in places where they don’t have separate tipped worker minimum wage categories.)
Your fundamental mistake here seems to lie in imagining that only one party in this situation can be behaving unethically.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because many restaurant owners take advantage of the basically unfair and inefficient established American custom of “routine tipping” to pay their servers low wages, doesn’t justify you in making those wages even lower by arbitrarily and selfishly refusing to recognize the customary obligation of routine tipping where it is established.
So, you don’t let on in advance that you’re opposed to the established and recognized custom of routine tipping, to ensure that restaurant staff won’t give you any “hassle” instead of serving you as well as they would a typical routine-tipping customer. Then you spring your little “tipping optional” surprise on them once you’ve got what you came for.
You know, that doesn’t come across as the courageous and principled defiance of oppressive social convention that you may be imagining.
Say that to a restaurant server before they seat you, as LHoD suggested, and it will count as a principled position.
At present, it amounts to no more than a feeble rationalization for cheapskating out of a recognized customary obligation because you can legally get away with it.
Out of curiosity, what percentage of the time do you opt to not leave a tip? And if you had to guess, what’s your average tip percentage, when you include the times that it’s zero? (Only when tips are expected, of course.) Also, do you always at least speak to the waitperson/manager and inform them why you’re not leaving a tip?
I just hope you’re not naive enough to ever return to eat at the same restaurant where you’ve previously left without leaving any tip. Even that might not be enough to ensure horrible, unspeakable things don’t happen to your food, since people in the restaurant business move between different restaurants, work multiple jobs/shifts at different restaurants, and also socialize amongst each other. They all have pretty good memories when it comes to people who stiff them on tips, and they share their memories with their cow-orkers as a matter of course.
Not saying it’s right, but I’m just super paranoid about keeping people happy who handle things I will be ingesting. I’ve been known to refuse to eat somewhere where someone in my party has potentially pissed people off. No way am I taking any collateral damage! It’s the not-knowing that’s the real bitch, it doesn’t really matter if they did it or not. If there’s even a slight reason to suspect the potential possibility, I just lost my appetite.
Always tipping well is worth it to me just to avoid increasing my chances of “extraneous ingredients” not to mention all the other good reasons.
…so according to some, not tipping is “fraud.” And according to you, tipping is like paying off a protection racket. Tipping is “extortion”: failure to pay could result in dire, illegal consequences. What an odd, strange system. It makes the “no tip” restaurant proposed by the OP seem so much more appealing.
I’m not imagining it as anything of the sort, though. You are.