I was watching a religious channel last night, and I saw a two-hour special about Noah’s Ark and how it is currently sitting high on Mt. Ararat. Supposedly it was discovered about 100 years ago; there have been numerous scientific and scholarly expeditions to explore it; for one reason or another the findings and evidence have been lost and all we have today are a couple blurry photographs and some eyewitness accounts; and no one has been able to get up Mt. Ararat and find it in more modern times because the mountain is off-limits due to geopolitical tensions in the region.
I’ve heard of this particular legend in the past as well, and I always wondered how much of this was actually true. I’m an atheist, and last night’s special was so full of creationist baloney that it was impossible to figure out where to draw the line between fact and fiction. I assume that it’s probably just another popular religious legend like the origins of the Shroud of Turin. Still, I would be interested in seeing a nice summation of what’s currently known about the thing on Mt. Ararat from impartial sources. Is there something actually up there? Does the non-religious community take seriously at all the claim that it might be Noah’s Ark? Are geopolitical tensions really keeping people from exploring the site, or is it taken for granted that the thing isn’t worth exploring in the first place? What about satellite photos of the spot?
Does anyone have a nice summation of available scientific knowledge about this particular claim? Has Cecil Adams possibly done a column on this subject?
Hey, if they ask you for money to contribute to an expedition, my suggestion is that you’d be better off spending your money buying Brooklyn Bridge from some panhandler.
I should caution that I didn’t see the TV show that you mention, but the whole thing rests on a number of dubious premeses. The Hebrew text of the Bible is fairly clear, the Ark comes to rest “on the mountains of Ararat.” I don’t have a KJV with me, but a mistranslatin of “on Mount Ararat” is just wrong. Ararat is an area, a lofty tableland, that is mentioned several times in the Hebrew Bible other than the Noah story: 2 Kings 19:27, Isaiah 37:38, and Jeremiah 51:27. The area is known as Urartu in Assyrian inscriptions. It is mostly in present-day Armenia, between the River Araxes and Lake Van. The sources of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers are neaerby.
There is no reason to associate the current Mount Ararat in Turkey, with the “mountains of Ararat” of 5,000 years ago.
Hey, thanks for the speedy reply, you guys! Two responses in just an hour, and from an Administrator and a Moderator. And early Saturday morning!
I didn’t see the start of the show, so I don’t know the name of it. It was on PAX channel, and it was actually a couple days ago (I typed the query up the next day but didn’t send it in until this morning).
And yeah, I figured there wasn’t anything to it. Ararat isn’t that high or that remote a mountain. I’ve heard it can be seen on a good day from the heights in Yerevan, the capital city of Armenia–it’s not like it’s tucked away somewhere in the Himalayas. So I couldn’t imagine that they haven’t resolved this thing one way or the other.
Still, this old legend has been floating around for a long time, and I wondered it it might have any basis in fact: Is there any sort of wooden structure up there of any sort? Any sort of reason for it to warrant the sort of scientific attention and scrutiny that, for example, the Shroud of Turin got (which was quite a lot, given the nature of the claim).
But from your responses I take it that there’s as much substance to this legend as there is to reports of sightings of Elvis on Mars. And that’s pretty much what I figured. I felt a little silly asking, but I had always wondered…
They’ve showed the same if not similar programmes on Discovery Channel in the UK. They are quite old documentaries, but if memory serves me correctly the latter of the series culminated in a few guys getting to the site covertly with some 1st generation ground penetrating radar equipment.
The results seemed to indicate that there was what appeared to be the layout of hull skeleton which was actually fused into the geology, resulting in a ‘structure’ formed of an iron oxide type material.
The dimensions of the object were quite close in cubits to that stated in the bible, close enough to further speculation that it could very well be the remains of the Ark (Noah’s not of the covenant that is).
More ground was given to the speculation the object was genuine in that the Government (Turkey?) had banned all access to the site.
Those arguing against however used the points raised by CKDextHavn almost to the letter, but it is an intruiging dabate with both sides having valid points.
I’ll keep an eye on the TV listings, if any of them come on again (highly likely as its nothing but repeats) I’ll note the name and post it.
Incidentally there’s a couple of not very useful references here but it’s a start http://www.discovered.net/discussion/messages/23.html
one of which mentions “Mysteries of the Ancient World - The Incredible Discovery of Noah’s Ark" based on the book by Charles Sellier” which could very well be the programme in question.
And whilst on a similar subject, did anyone hear the whole (or any of the) story of the recreation of the Tabernacle that was made by some scientists in the USA. It apparently had to be dismantled quickly as it proved to be such a powerful collector of electricity it proved to be to dangerous to be near (plus rumours of lots of unexplained phenomenon).
Skaill: I have incredibly high suspicions that the information you mentioned is 100% bogus (not that you are presenting bogus info on purpose, but that the info you saw was).
Here is a link to two articles on the schlockumentary you mentioned, showing how poor their “research” was:
Wow David B a brilliant read and an excellent statement by yourself.
When you put it in the context of deceiving 40million people it puts it into a whole new perspective.
Jammal should have been a politician then maybe he could have gotten away with a deceit on that scale :-).
The Jammal episode is not one which I have seen as a ‘schlockumentary’, there was certainly no wood sample evidence involved nor a cave nor ice.
The name Ed Behling rings a bell as does Ed Davis, but there were quite a few Ark hunters around the area at the time.
There will always be hoaxes and people to be taken in by them, but the existence of a huge boat shaped depression in the rock near the top of a mountain, that would be a hell of a one to pull off.
I’ve read numerous books about expeditions to Ararat.
There is disagreement on whether or not the mountain currently known as Ararat is the same as the one mentioned in the Bible. It is rather likely that it is not.
There are so many “if’s” to this whole thing it seems unlikely that anyone would ever find it, even if it does exist.
I’m sorry. I hit reply thinking that I would make a great post filled with references to the books I own on the subject, written by both believers and non-believers, but to me, the whole thing boils down to “maybe, but probably not”.
Creationists desperately want the ark to be found, thinking that it would prove the Bible to be true. I think that finding evidence of a boat in the mountiains would simply prove that water was once high enough to place a boat there. That, to me, is not enough to prove the entire Bible as the literal truth.
Given that Noah is specificly stated to have built the Ark out of gopher wood (Gen. 6:14, Gen. 6:22), we may suppose that:
[list=1]
[li]“gopher wood” is a hitherto-unsuspected synonym for “iron”[/li][li]Genesis is not factually inerrant[/li][li]The results have nothing to do with the Ark[/li][/list=1]
I’ll take #3, with a side order of #2.
But he did get away with it – that’s just the point. He completely fooled the producers of the show because they didn’t bother to do any checking whatsoever. That says something about all the other “evidence” on the show, as well.
Well, I’m sure they have removed it by now, even if they are using the rest. They may be dumb, but they aren’t that dumb!
You’re right, it would. But I’m still waiting to see evidence that such a thing does actually exist.
If you are interested in the legend of the flood and its possible origins, check out the work done by Professors Walter Pitman and Bill Ryan. I’ve studied Earth Science with both of them (Pitman was one of my advisors in college) and remember hearing them speak around the subject as they were in the earlier stages of the research. They may sound at times like they get carried away with their own theories (especially when an editor or interviewer wants to make his piece more intriguing, i.e. cutting out all of their caveats and tempered speech) but they are both very careful scientists. I haven’t read their book on the subject yet, but I have heard from other classmates who have that though it is somewhat awkwardly written, the logic and facts generally hold up.
In short, they propose that around five thousand years or so ago a vast natural dam broke in the Black Sea area, in turn causing mass emigration of the region’s inhabitants. This flood (of literally biblical proportions) became ingrained in the stories and legends of the displaced people. They carried the story outward with them, and this is why flood stories are common to many peoples in disparate regions of the world. The proceeding, of course, condenses their theory in ways that would make the editors of Reader’s Digest blush. Go here and get a better description of the story from the BBC. Or buy the book.
If their ideas pan out, than it would not be too surprising if archeologists someday find an ark. Sure, lots of people at the time would have built large boats at the time. Rising water levels due to a sea’s inundation might have been enough to raise it to an improbable location (though not as ridiculously high as a snow-capped mountain top) and leave it there as the waters receded. And if they do find some sort of large watercraft, won’t it be fun debating whether it is an ark or whether it is the ark.
Thanks for listening,
Rhythmdvl
[moderator’s note: This thead was really, really, messed up. I cleaned up some corrupt characters in this post in hopes of restoring it. Rhythmdvl, if I changed anything in error, please let me know. -manhattan]
I reviewed the book mentioned above for the newspaper when it first came out. They do indeed have some very interesting information, though the book itself could have used some work.
If anybody is interested, my full review is available on Themestream. You can either go to their site and search for it or e-mail me for the link.
<< And whilst on a similar subject, did anyone hear the whole (or any of the) story of the recreation of the Tabernacle that was made by some scientists in the USA. It apparently had to be dismantled quickly as it proved to be such a powerful collector of electricity it proved to be to dangerous to be near (plus rumours of lots of unexplained phenomenon). >>
Oh, Lordy, not this one again. And the Ark of the Covenant was a huge electrical generator (it had rings on the side, that’s just like a coiled wire, see?). Did you hear that they found this stick out in the Arabian desert, dating back 3500 years, and when you twist it a certain way, it coils like a serpent? And how about the great huge minaret they found out in Iran, with a carving that said, “Construction on this minaret was ceased because all of a sudden the workers couldn’t understand each other.”
And there’s a lake in the Gallilee region in Israel where, at low tide, the water is deceptively shallow, so that you can walk right across it.
Shall I go on?
No one loses money when they bank on the gullibility of the masses.
David B Said “But I’m still waiting to see evidence that such a thing does actually exist”
When Skaill said “a huge boat shaped depression in the rock near the top of a mountain”
Well pictures do exist (and I just know your gonna tell me they are a hoax too sketchy though they may be can be found at this page http://www.anchorstone.com/wyatt/number8.html
In no way do I agree or disagree with the contents of the aforementioned page, but do however believe these may be the same blurry photos which JTR referred to when beginning this thread.
If nothing else, the thing is there, it does exist and it is an anomaly.
Skaill said:
quote:
Jammal should have been a politician then maybe he could have gotten away with a deceit on that scale :-).
David B Said
But he did get away with it – that’s just the point. He completely fooled the producers of the show because they didn’t bother to do any checking whatsoever. That says something about all the other “evidence” on the show, as well.
Well he only got away with it for a while didn’t he, if that were not the case then his deceit would still be unknown, and he would have gotten away with it.
As for the other evidence on the show, if it were presented by other persons then surely it is not justifiable to assume that just because Jammal is proven to be a fraudster that other parties presenting evidence of they’re own on the same subject, should automatically be assumed to also be fraudsters.
(assuming your remark is aimed at the evidence of others that is, and not that of Jammal – if this assumption is wrong then please accept my apologies for misunderstanding your point)
Anyhow, being someone who is not well read on the subject, and probably one that falls into the category of the 40 million who were sucked in by the fraud it still seems to be a thing worthy of further investigation, as lolagranola implied, this thing could be factual proof of the Big Book it self’s historical factuality.
And answers to questions don’t get much bigger than that.
Perhaps it is a small question, but what ever happened to the raven? I opened a bible today and found that before Noah sent the dove, he sent a raven, who was, it seemed, ordered just to fly about, check whether the floods were gone, and whether the earth was dry, and so on. This bible tells us that the dove came back etc. But what happened to the raven?
sketchy though they may be can be found at this page