Non-christian viewpoints of the Sermon on the Mount

[Liberal]

I would like to hear takes from non-christians on the Sermon on the Mount, delivered by Jesus early in His ministry. Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans, Wiccans, Hindus — all are invited. I’m wondering whether their are differences based on religious culture and what might be a basis for debate among them.

Christians may feel free to participate, but please yield to nonchristians, and respect that their views might (or might not) differ drastically from ours. As many of you know, the Atheists for Jesus consider the Sermon on the Mount to be sound moral teaching. Do other atheists? Do Jews? Muslims? Others?

I am mostly interested in the Beatitudes (the “blessed are” sayings) and certain other portions of the sermon. Here is the text of interest:

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Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even unbelievers do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

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Comments? Please feel free to comment on any or all portions. Thanks for participating.

[Kimstu]

You don’t mention Buddhists in your request from comments from representatives of various other religious, but the SotM seems to me (an atheist, btw) in many ways reminiscent of Buddhist philosophy (and also of Sankhya in Hinduism), with a theistic perspective thrown in (the transactional/transcendental nature of righteousness is seen not just as the workings of the Wheel but as the decree of the loving Father).

Sound morality? Yepper.

[Liberal]

Thanks, Kimstu, for contributing! (Where’ve you been?)

I didn’t mention Buddhists because my understanding was that theirs was more of a philosophy than a religion. But certainly, Buddhists are invited, and I apologize to any Buddhists whom I offended.

[Drastic]

I figured Buddhism fits in the em-dash. I like that.

I’ll second sound moral teaching, with the personal view that the theistic framework was an expedient means applied to the culture and audience to whom Jesus was speaking.

[Liberal]

The em-dash?

[Drastic]

–

[Drastic]

Or rather, “—” as distinguished from “-”.

[Liberal]

:smack: Thanks, Drastic.

[Drastic]

Blessed are the typesetters. Sorry about the opacity.

[Freyr]

Here’s a Wiccan checking in.

IMHO, if you want to distill Christianity down to its essential message, this is the text to use.

I would also comment that at the time of Jesus, Palestine was under Roman occupation. Therefore, looking at the text in that context you can see Jesus giving hope to the underdog, the downtrodden people. Telling them there is hope and that their situation may be sorrowful now, it will improve, if not in this life, then in the next.

I certainly agree these are good moral principles to live by. Might they be so good as to be universal? Something that all religions agree upon? I think even La Veyian Satanists would grudgingly agree with these moral principles.

[Dinsdale]

Blessed are the cheesemakers?

[CheapBastid]

As a reformed Active Atheist and current Philosophical Buddhist I’ll chime in with my take.

The ‘Blessed are’ section is mostly fluff used to comfort those who lack. A much used tool by the power mongers to control the tithe-givers.

The Love Thy Enemies is sound advice, but the 'better that the Jones’s and ‘Be Perfect’ sections are a bit much.

The pray in secret and you will be rewarded doesn’t seem meaningful or important, but a nice rebuke to the Holy-er than thous out there.

Do not store your treasures is good advice, but if I am to take the sermon on the mount as a piece unto itself I can’t go with the alternative of the ‘treasures of heaven’ as they are undefined.

Do not judge is darn good advice.

Ask and it will be given? That goes towards the Church of Magic Santee-Claus. The gem of the golden rule is hidden by this extry-gooey fluff.

[zev_steinhardt]

Well, this is the first time I’m reading the SOTM, so if I made errors out of ignorance, please let me know.

*Originally stated by Jesus *
**
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

**

Who exactly are the “poor in spirit?”

**
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

**

While mourning is sometimes neccessary, I don’t see the virtue of constant mourning, unless there is a specific reason to do so. Is there a specific reason why Jesus wanted people to mourn?

Certainly God tells us that He comfort mourners. But I’m not sure why they should be “blessed.”

**
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

**

I’m not sure what is meant by “meek” in this context. Does it mean “passive?” If so, I would tend to think that that is not really a Jewish virtue either. There are times when one must not be meek, but must act and act decisively.

**
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

**

Can’t argue with this.

**
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

**

Indeed. The Talmud notes that one who shows compassion to the cruel will end up becoming cruel to the compassionate. Not all people are meant to be shown mercy.

**
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

**

Can’t argue here too much.

**
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

**

Again, as above, there are times when war is called for (…eis milchama, v’eis shalom – “a time for war, and a time for peace.”)

**
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

**

This is consistent with Jewish thought.

**
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

**

Love your neighbor is in the Torah, in Leviticus. Hate your enemy is not. In fact, in Exodus 23:4, we are enjoined to help our enemies.

**
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.

**

Praying for those who persecute you is not a Jewish concept.

However…

There is a story of a Rabbi in the Talmud, who upon seeing an Emporer who was known for his harsh decrees against the Jews, greeted him with blessings of health and long life. Whe the emporer asked him why he would wish long life and health to someone who clearly meant him and his people harm, he was told that it was well known that he was harsher than his father. He was therefore wished long life becuase it was assumed that his son would be harsher than he was.

**
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even unbelievers do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men.

**

Well, Judaism places great importance on communal prayer. It is clear from many sources that communal prayer is preferable to prayer from an individual. Indeed, there are certain prayers that cannot even be said, nor can the Torah be read publicly in the synagouge, unless a minyan (quorom of 10 adult Jewish men) are present. They are praying “in the synagouges” not because they want to be seen, but because that is the place to pray and the gathering place for a minyan to gather. That should hardly be a criticism.

**
I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

**

There is nothing wrong with saying a private prayer to God for something that you need. But to me (and maybe it’s just my reading of this), Jesus seems to be slighting public prayer in favor of private prayer. That is simply incorrect in Judaism.

**
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

**

Beautifully said.

**
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

**

This is a concept that is brought down in the Talmud in several places as well.

**
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

**

Amazingly, Jesus quotes Levitucus 19:18 (“Love your neighbor”) but misses Levitucs 19:17 (“you shall correct your neighbor”). No one is perfect. I have my faults and others have their own faults. Does this mean that I shouldn’t mention to someone that he’s doing something wrong just becuase I have my own faults (I’m assuming that’s the idea that Jesus is arguing here. If I’m wrong, then never mind)? Sure I may have a plank in my eye, but why should I not at least help my neighbor remove the sawdust speck from his eye as well?

Obviously, one should not be a hypocrite. It would be one thing if I was a thief and I admonished someone for stealing. But am I not entitled to admonish someone for stealing even if, for example, I missed prayer one day?

**
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

**

Indeed, but with a qualification. The Talmud expounds upon a verse (which I can’t remember off the top of my head) that basiclly advises a person that if they open (metaphorically) the Temple gates even a needle’s width, God will open it for them all the way. The idea being that one must make the initial effort. Simply asking is not enough. One must act.

**
Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

**

Indeed, this is a restatement of Hillel’s famous saying (which was a restatement of Leviticus)…

Zev Steinhardt

[Liberal]

Thanks, CheapBastid. A reformed Atheist cum Buddhist view is fascinating indeed!

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Zev

I’ll do my best to answer your direct questions. Aside from that, however, I greatly appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts.

Who exactly are the “poor in spirit?”

The term used to indicate Jesus’ meaning is derived from [symbol]ptwcos[/symbol], and is the more severe of the two Greek words for poverty. It indicates someone who believes his situation to be hopeless, someone who believes that he is powerless.

Is there a specific reason why Jesus wanted people to mourn?

There is no indication that I know of that Jesus wanted people to mourn. He merely told them that if they mourn, God will comfort them. I suppose it follows that whoever is comforted by God is blessed.

I’m not sure what is meant by “meek” in this context. Does it mean “passive?”

The term is derived from [symbol]praus[/symbol], is used only once in the New Testament, and means “gentleness” or “mildness”. Most commentators hold that it is a “disposition of spirit in which we accept [God’s] dealings with us as good, and therefore without disputing or resisting”. (Strongs 4239)

Does this mean that I shouldn’t mention to someone that he’s doing something wrong just becuase I have my own faults (I’m assuming that’s the idea that Jesus is arguing here. If I’m wrong, then never mind)?

I think the spirit of the passage is captured in the first sentence: “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” In other words, finding fault in someone else does not mitigate faults of your own.

I hope I didn’t miss any of your questions, and thanks again!

[Liberal]

Freyer

I was hoping you would drop in! I’ve always thought that (genuine) Christian and Wiccan principles were compatible. This is an especially keen insight:

I would also comment that at the time of Jesus, Palestine was under Roman occupation. Therefore, looking at the text in that context you can see Jesus giving hope to the underdog, the downtrodden people. Telling them there is hope and that their situation may be sorrowful now, it will improve, if not in this life, then in the next.

[VarlosZ]

I am an atheist with Buddhist sympathies. Most of the passage seems like sound advice to me. The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is the emphasis on heavenly rewards. First, shouldn’t it be reason enough to act this way that doing so will improve our lot here on earth? Second, just how “good” can an act be if you’re doing it to receive a specific reward which is infinitely better than the alternative? It’s not that acting out of self-interest makes the act “bad,” but it shouldn’t be especially commendable.

[Liberal]

A fascinating point of view, Varlos. Thanks. (I’m assuming your questions were rhetorical.)

[Drastic]

[quasi-hijack]

Quoth VarlosZ:
First, shouldn’t it be reason enough to act this way that doing so will improve our lot here on earth?

Well, I’m more or less a Buddhist with atheist memories, so I’ll risk saying that I think I know where that’s coming from–year or two ago I would have been entirely in agreement with it. But, it seems to me that, from a purely cold-bloodedly “practical” sense, that sometimes acting this way–whether one comes at it with the term agape or bodhichitta or whatnot else–will not improve our lot here on earth (“our” not encompassing such things as eternal spirit or even more slippery formulations like anatman and “interbeing”). Sometimes, it hurts (if nothing else, the work to develop it tends to run against strong habits, and is thus a general pain in the ass. ). Sometimes, it kills.

Even Good News has to balance against hard truths from time to time. I accept–now–that it’s nevertheless the right thing, regardless of rosy eschatological consequences. But that probably would have lost a good chunk of Jesus’s audience.
[/quasi-hijack]

[Arnold_Winkelried]

I think that most of the text is unobjectionable, but the following sections:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

could be used, and I think have been used in the past, as a tool to prevent social upheaval amongst the less fortunate classes. Isn’t this the point of view adopted by Uncle Tom in Harriet Beecher Stowe’s famous novel by the same name? His forgiving of his persecutors had the added effect of preventing him from taking action to protest his ill-treatment.
I could imagine a clergyman sermonizing on the basis of this text, at the time of the industrial revolution, to try to convince some unhappy workers that they should not protest their abysmal working conditions because their true reward was in heaven.

[Howard_Juneau]

Hey Libertarian – nice topic…
Did you ever notice how the Beatitudes (i.e. the opening verses of the Sermon on the Mount) fit nicely into the “thesis - antithesis - synthesis” framework?
Poverty of spirit seems to be rooted in the individual.
“They who mourn” shifts the focus to concern for others.
Put the two together (an individual who has an understanding of their own spiritual need as well as a concern for the spiritual welfare of others) and you get a person described as “meek”.
Hungering and thirsting for righteousness is fine, but often it can be overdone for lack of mercy. All mercy and no righteousness ignores justice. Put the two in balance and there you’ve got someone “pure in heart”.

 BTW, hey Zev -- thanks for your insights.  You helped "de-lurk" me!