Non-religiously-justified moral premises (philosophy).

A moral framework–a code under which certain action could be termed right or wrong–certainly requires some justification. Otherwise you’re just talking about your personal opinions of things you like or dislike; there’s no weight to the ideas. Innate knowledge is moral authority and justification if it can be shown that there are commonalities in such knowledge for most people.

Right. I believe in natural rights, and in the possibility for finding such innate truths within ourselves.

What I don’t understand are atheists who deny natural morality and yet still make assertions about right and wrong.

What is the basis for those emotions? Why do most people have similar emotional reactions to certain kinds of scenarios? It almost seems like there’s something innate, something natural, at work, doesn’t it?

You’ve pretty much given the argument I was about to post before I read yours.
Very concise. I like that.

What do you mean by natural morality? Objective Morality? Because morality is both subjective and “natural.”

I would think that if there is a “natural morality” it would be defined by Darwinism. Survival of the fittest.

No, Darwinism is amoral (not immoral, just not relevant to the same discussion).

Natural morality is behavior which respects natural rights and upholds natural law. “Natural law” in this usage is not at all the same thing as “the law of the jungle.”

OK, if you like.

State the principles on which your morality is based. Then give the objective reasons why those principles are better or more valid than any other, if possible. If you think that survival of the species is what is important, then show why it is objectively better than humans survive for a thousand years, or two thousand, or that it will matter in the long run if humans survive rather than, say, cockroaches. If you want to say that avoiding suffering is important, then demonstrate that electrical activity in one area of the brain is important but electrical activity in a different area is not.

Note that this is inductive reasoning, not deductive.

For instance -

I think the notion is pretty silly, but let’s assume that this is true.

Why should I pay any attention to this alleged inner voice? What gives it any authority to establish morality?

Regards,
Shodan

Survival of the fittest is not a concept that can be called moral. Survival of the fittest is a tautology: if you survive and reproduce better than others, you’re by definition fitter than the others, no matter how you do it. If that is natural morality, it’s quite useless to any human concept of morality (ok, well, the Spartans and Nazis might find it an acceptable moral idea, but I certainly don’t).

I think you misunderstood me there, what I was trying to say is that moral systems, in practice, need some alignment with human emotions and “instincts” or they just won’t last.

This is actually something that I’ve put a great deal of thought into in recent months, it’s not completely coherent at this point, but I’ll give it a shot.

In short, I am a theist, but I don’t see the morality passed down by God as being anything more than sort of a set of basic guidelines that, generally, will lead us toward the goal. Of course, different people have different ideas of what that ultimate goal is but, given that goal, and the level of understanding/enlightenment of man at a particular time, that one could ultimately derive a set of morals remarkably similar.

I think this idea is best illustrated with an analogy. The game of chess is, given a sufficiently powerful computer, ultimately computable. As such, given a sufficiently powerful computer one could, at any given state, determine the ideal move toward a particular goal (usually winning). As humans, we’re not able to maintain such a massive statespace in our heads, and even the greatest masters can only look so many moves ahead. As such, we cannot rely on a definite result for a given state and, instead, have to look ahead at expected outcomes and generate a set of guidelines that we can generalize to some set of states and then know what are likely a good set of moves as a result. As a player becomes more skilled and experience, he learns a larger set of rules that have a finer resolution over the set of states.

To my knowledge, as best as we can tell, the universe is quantized, and thus is also computable. As such, in this analogy, the nature of God would be equivalent to such a powerful computer that is able to determine the ideal move in a given state toward a particular goal. Thus, the morals passed down by God are much like the set of guidelines in the game of chess, where God is providing a set of morals at a level roughly equal to how progressed humanity is. And the interesting thing is, much like how the guidelines for chess were slowly built up over time, even in the absence of God, given the same goal, humanity is able to test out various guidelines at our level of enlightenment and determine how effectively they further that goal.

The problem is, each approach has some drawbacks. From a top down approach, the guidelines are only approximations based on our ability to understand, so even if they are divinely provided, they can lead to sub-optimal decisions. The bigger problem, though, is that they have to be re-evaluated constantly, which is something that many do not do. As an example, if we take the Bible as such a revelation, we have to realize that those guidelines are based upon the culture and progress of those people, thousands of years ago. As such, that they show issues today is not necessarily a sign that they were bad then, but simply that we have changed, and that with our higher degree of understanding and development, we can uncover how they apply today or even how they are being revealed to us today, and unlikely to be in such a manner.

With a bottom up approach, you have the exact opposite problem. Things seem to be furthering a goal, but we could go quite far down a particular decision branch before we realize that the whole thing is a dead end. This can easily result in a lot of spiralling immorality (at least as it appears to us now) that could be very difficult to recover from. Worse, unlike the other approach, we can never really be that sure how far back we screwed up.

Or to summarize with another analogy. Imagine morality is some arbitarily large dimensional curve that we’re trying to model with an n-polynomial curve such that n is our level of progress and enlightenment. The top-down approach would be if someone took the exact curve as it exists, could take an arbitrarily large set of samples, and did an n-polynomial fit to those data. When we see that polynomial, we know it’s the best that is achievable for that degree, and it’s probably pretty close over most of the curve, and it’s better than anything we could achieve for that degree, but it’s still not exactly on. As we’re able to understand higher and higher degrees and are better able to measure the distances between the model and the actual, the error may become more apparent we compared to other methods for fitting the data we have. With the bottom-up approach, we have a methodology for fitting the nth degree polynomial, but we’re only able to get so many samples and we really have no idea how representative various samples are, only how much error they produce with the fitted polynomial. As such, when we get a larger set of data or an ability to fit a higher degree, we can become more aware of a better model.

As such, I really see the best approach, to mean the fastest convergence, as a sort of hybrid of these two, where we can have definite points of reference for good approximations, and we use that context and our growth since as a basis for working up to where we are. And this, I think, is where a lot of theists go astray, an unwillingness to deviate from a divinely provided set of rules, and where many atheists fail too, sometimes venturing wildly down the wrong path OR backing up much too far, either due to oddities in the available data and a lack of a definitive point of reference.

Now, of course, this all begs the question of what that “goal” is, and while I believe it is somewhere around freedom and growth for reasons that are probably out of the scope of this discussion, I’m unsure exactly how much it matters because, in my own thought experiments, there’s very little difference in the resultant set of morals when applying a multitude of different “goals”. I think this is due, though, to the relative infancy of humanity such that pretty much any general movement in the direction of growth will further these multitudes to some degree.

So, in short, even as a theist who believes that God can, and likely has, provided us with a set of divinely inspired moral rules, to say that it “necessitates” him for justification isn’t really a fair assessment. You see, we WILL be trying to refine these rules ourselves regardless of whether or not he exists and whether or not he provides a set of rules. Even if our goals don’t exactly match, as it seems ours over time has generally be in a direction of growth, we’re headed in the same direction. The fundamental difference, as I see it, is just that God is able to provide us that model that is roughly at our degree of understanding which, if we make good use of it, can help us converge, and thus grow, faster than we could without it.

I think that morality is easy enough to justify; morality makes life safer, easier and more pleasant for everyone. Those are better justifications for morality than the commands of a god even if there were such things as gods.

Actually, I don’t think they would; they are after all both gone. As Darwinian losers I expect they’d find some excuse to not approve of natural selection in their case.

At any rate, you are right; “survival of the fittest” isn’t a moral principle, it’s a description of how the world works. Besides being amoral, it also fails at being a moral standard by being inviolable; you can’t get around Darwinian selection any more than you can get around gravity, it is simply how the world is. And no, human intervention like medicine and selective breeding isn’t getting around evolution any more than flying a plane invalidates gravity. You are just changing one selector for another, from natural selection to human selection. If you can survive on the kindness of others or with a prosthesis, that’s just as valid in Darwinian terms as any other survival strategy.

Oh, yeah. The more I read of your postings the more I want to marry you and bear you children… and I will listen as you tell them of the world… of course… I’ll need to find a way to reverse this whole menopause thang I have going on! And … I’ll have to find a way to break the news to my husband… He’ll be heart-sick. Not to mention the kids…

Oh, well. What must be, must be.

I wonder if you and Shodan are assigning completely different meanings to the words “faith based.”

As I understand him, Shodan is not saying that your morality is rooted in some religion. Rather, he is saying that the moral principles you live by are, ultimately, based on something you have to “take on faith,” rather than something you can objectively justify.

That’s only true if “everyone,” collectively, is your reference point. If you look at things from individual perspectives, there are lots of times when actions in contravention of prevailing morality make life better for that individual.

Just googling around and found this:

" Moral Relativism: The philosophized notion that right and wrong are not absolute values, but are personalized according to the individual and his or her circumstances or cultural orientation. It can be used positively to effect change in the law (e.g., promoting tolerance for other customs or lifestyles) or negatively as a means to attempt justification for wrongdoing or lawbreaking. The opposite of moral relativism is moral absolutism, which espouses a fundamental, Natural Law of constant values and rules, and which judges all persons equally, irrespective of individual circumstances or cultural differences." Relativistic ethics legal definition of Relativistic ethics

Interesting, no?

And this: “Other anthropologists point to a range of practices considered morally acceptable in some societies but condemned in others, including infanticide, genocide, polygamy, racism, sexism, and torture. Such differences may lead us to question whether there are any universal moral principles or whether morality is merely a matter of ‘cultural taste.’ Differences in moral practices across cultures raise an important issue in ethics – the concept of ‘ethical relativism.’” Ethical Relativism - Markkula Center for Applied Ethics

I think (at least right now—if I did some deep thinking about it I might change my mind or at least reformulate it) that moral principles are based on values. It is what we value that justifies the moral principles we live by.

If you say things like

or

, you’re saying that morality is a means to an end, whether that end is the survival of the species or a more pleasant life for everyone or whatever. This means that you’re saying such things are valuable.

If you can show that the moral principles you espouse really do promote those values, you’ve justified the moral principles—but you’ve just pushed the problem one level back. You’d still have to justify, or take as given, those values.

It’s not based on any principles at all. Morality just describes evolved human emotinal responses. These emotional responses are codified by cultures into agreed upon rules, but there’s no “principle” involved. It starts with the emotional responses. It’s all just brain chemistry.

That is also known as “short sightedness”. Yeah, stealing or killing might benefit me more, right now; but if everyone runs around stealing, everyone including me is worse off. We need laws forbidding such things because that kind of short sightedness is endemic among humans; that doesn’t make moral behavior any less desirable for people, even if people sometimes need to be coerced into not destroying the society they live in.

No, we don’t actually. We are what we are. Morality is for us, and is therefore defined by our nature. Pain and oppression and deprivation are defined as bad by our nature; we don’t like it when those things happen to us, because that is how we are constructed. That’s why murdering someone is wrong but breaking a rock isn’t; rocks don’t care if they are destroyed, people do.

Two things about your whole post:

  1. Yes, this is begging the question of what the goal is. As far as I can see, you’ve skipped over the part where you identify that there is a goal at all.

  2. A goal, if you find/pick/agree with/feel one is very important. For example, if the goal is “the Dutch should rule the world, as soon as possible”, the resulting moral system will be very different than when you start with “everybody should have a life that’s as peaceful as possible” or “scripture is true [if not literal everywhere] and we should do whatever god asks of us”. Compare the Spartan culture with Buddhist moral code, or Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son as rough approximations of the outcomes.

The “goal” can be more or less the collection of premises I was asking about in the original post, but I’ve not seen a real reason to assume there is such a thing, objectively. Aside from our own built-in revulsions and likes.

But is the theory that all systems of morality are faith-based . . . itself, faith-based? And thus is it no better or worse than theories that NO or SOME systems of morality are faith-based?

I am aware of moral relativism, but it can lead to things that I personally do not find acceptable. It’s a useful concept, in that it describes the width of opinion and practice, but it’s dangerous in that it can lead you to uncritically accept practices in others that you wouldn’t accept yourself.

For instance, there used to be island civilizations that practiced infanticide to keep population levels under control. Having limited resources and no method of birth control (and possibly no working knowledge of how pregnancy worked at all), one could justify the practice as the alternative would likely be a state of permanent (near) starvation for the whole community.

Now, I would say that on the whole, if we found such a civilization today, introducing birth control measures and some education on how all this stuff works would be much more preferable than just accepting it as “well, that’s part of their moral code”. Even if it doesn’t directly affect me or my community.