I can offer no explanation that requires a god. Are you are saying god’s indifference to those he loves is proof that he exists? That kind of pretzel logic is unpersuasive.
Jesse, I want to make sure I’m not communicating with a false spirit. Could you elaborate on how to test them?
Behaving badly in what sense? Do you happen to have a biblical passage that references this?
So you don’t believe in Hell as a place of fire, torment, and etcetera, but that it is merely non-existence? It seems like these days that the Christian community is split nearly 50/50 on this issue. On what do you base your belief?
I know this isn’t the thread for it, but would you ever consider sharing some of your experiences? You mentioned you had your own forum; do you talk about them there? What is your forum’s URL?
I also had a question about one of your posts that I meant to quote, but I guess I didn’t. You mentioned that the jews will be veiled until the proper number of gentiles have entered the kingdom. Do you happen to have a passage for this as well? I don’t recall reading about that before.
Thanks for all your responses so far in this thread; I’ve enjoyed reading them. Sorry if any of my questions have already been answered.
Fear Itself and Just Incredible (HAVE to love that handle, LOL!), I can’t spare the time to address your post at the moment, but I want to. If you’ll permit me twenty-four hours, I’ll get back to you both - God Willing.
Justin - so you know, yes I do have Scriptural backing for all that you asked.
Warm Agape Love - Jesse.
But god has the power to wipe away every tear, and he chooses not to. If he were real, it wouldn’t be possible to cause our own pain. It wouldn’t exist. But of course, if it didn’t exist, there’d be no reason for you to pray. So you make excuses for your monster. You can’t admit he doesn’t love you.
You choose to be optimistic. So do I. So what? That doesn’t mean anything to your god. You sit there and hope that he’s going to start being nice to you? How long to you have to wait? How much suffering can your perfect being dump on you before you start thinking that maybe he’s just not that into you?
Love, shmove. If that’s love, I’ll take a pass, thanks.
I certainly can when you use terms like “physically and medically impossible.” I don’t care what you say your shared experiences were; they are irrelevant and I’m not going to offer an opinion on them specifically.
But to say that shared experiences are impossible outside of religion is flat out incorrect. I just linked proof of that to you, unless of course, you don’t believe in psychology, which is a whole other thing.
What’s more likely? That you experienced some divine interaction with an entity nobody can prove even exists (although I’ve no doubt you’d love to do so). Or, that you and a few others were convinced of it through the natural human desire to relate to one another? It’s human nature to group together and find common bonds. It’s a function of imperfect creatures to believe what they’ve imagined is a real, physical experience.
If I told you that last night I had a vision of Jesus and he came to me and told me to apologize to you for disagreeing, how would you know that I was being honest? You wouldn’t, regardless of whether I was regarded as sincere in this matter or not. If you chose to believe me, it would be on faith.
Once again, I see nothing wrong with faith, so long as you recognize it and present it as such. To present that which you have faith in as fact, undermines the very concept. Proof should not be necessary for you. The reason it becomes necessary is because you present it to others as fact. There is a way out of this vicious circle, you know.
And? When you asked this question, what did your pal tell you?
The thing is, if you asked a strong believer of any religion, they would give a similar answer. They would say that they had experienced things that were undeniably true and that their spiritual experiences had been shared by others around them.
Jews have experienced what you have experienced.
Muslims have experienced what you have experienced.
Hindus have experienced what you have experienced.
Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Hinduism can’t all literally be true. Millions of people have had shared spiritual experiences just as profound and deep as your own and MOST of those experiences have been FALSE. Why then should we believe your spiritual experiences have been any different?
Does God have a sense of humour? Maybe he enjoys a little mockery.
If God doesn’t have a sense of humour, then why do we humans, having been made in his image and all? Are we better than God?
Jesse provided a pretty good example of different types of love. I tend to think of it as different expressions of love based on the relationship and the situation.
I understand the give and take you speak of. IMO if the situation is right I think the give and take of love provides a great example of duality fading away. {Sorry if this seems to far out there.} There can come a moment or more in the give and take of love where instead of two people doing different things their actions merge. In giving to another we receive something, and in receiving, we give. It’s something poets and songwriters refer to in romantic love but I think it occurs in other relationships as well.
I think out of respect for our fellow man and our sense of honor, justice, or mercy we can do positive things. I’m not sure I could make the distinction between those and love when it comes to an action. “Love your enemy” is a principle of love that can help move humanity forward.
btw, I totally agree there has to be a self in love. That’s an area where I have a major disagreement with the concepts of religion. Humility, and being humble are great things but I seriously doubt any omnipotent deity needs or wants our worship is some “grovel before me” way. The humility comes when we realize that
we are a part of the greater whole. In a world filled with comparisons about who’s smarter, stronger, more attractive, wealthier, we hopefully come to an understanding on how little those things matter in the big picture. In fact, doesn’t “love thy neighbor as thyself” indicate we’re supposed to love ourselves?
My problem with this Jesse is I think it you are placing God as a completely separate all powerful deity. Lot’s of religions do this and IMHO it’s incorrect. What makes more sense to me is that we are already a part of the greater whole. We may believe we are separate and apart but that is the illusion we are trying to shatter. That is the falsehood we will be freed from by the truth of our connection.
Agreed. I just don’t think a deity with the attributes we often ascribe to God requires worship in a “humble yourself before me because I’m great and you’re not” manner. We use human traits to refer to God but we should remain aware that those are not literal. For example, calling God a jealous god who doesn’t want us to worship other gods and will be mad and punish us seems like a very outdated concept. It’s like saying heat is jealous and if we don’t show heat proper respect and reverence we’ll be cold.
An attitude of humility is important not to please an imagined separate being on some throne, but as an acknowledgment of the truth of our shared connection to each other and all creation. A recognition that whatever our gifts or talents or title may be, we are in this together.
I don’t see it as arrogance. Why would you expect anyone to bow down before a particular view of a deity they don’t believe in? Christ {to the extent we can believe the story} fulfilled his purpose by teaching and living the truth. In this world that usually means serving, although it can express itself in many ways.
This I like. Nicely put.
He has no right to expect anything until he proves his own existence to me. Even then, he’d have a lot of explaining to do. He’s accountable to me, not me to him.
Jesse, with respect, here’s something all believers need to understand. Your interpretation of scriptures, the nature and purpose of scripture and personnel revelation, and what God requires of you and according to your belief , others as well, is all your opinion. I don’t mean that in any accusatory way, or with any intent at diminishing your beliefs. It’s simply a statement of fact. As someone who reveres the truth it’s an important one. As someone who counts himself as a believer I think it’s important for other believers to recognize this as true as well.
The truth is, your opinion is certainly very relevant because it forms a big part of your belief system and how you interact with others. The thing to keep in mind is that is is indeed an opinion. Other’s opinions are just as relevant.
It’s clear that there are lots of people who believe in God but don’t agree on the details. There are many people who worship Jesus but don’t agree on the details. Many who see the Bible as the Word of God but don’t agree on how it is to be interpreted.
IMO, seeing your personnel interpretation, or even a particular groups interpretation as “God said it” rather than “What I personally think this means” IMHO is a disservice to the truth and detrimental to growth not to mention promoting understanding.
You have every right to interpret that particular passage in a way that is meaningful to you but I hope you can see that others , like me for instance, have the same right. As you see arrogance in others who disagree with you doesn’t it seem like arrogance to present your interpretation as the obvious correct one that is “what God meant”?
I can’t figure why anybody who has been around these boards much would bother to insist on evidence when we’ve established over and over again there isn’t any objective evidence. If someone is testifying rather than conversing and you can’t find any thing to discuss, scorn and insults are not the only option.
I passed this several times before i got it. Pretty funny:D
[QUOTE]
No, just funnier.
I think we are born with the strong potential to create things for our own use. Religion and gods are two examples of this, stone hammers are another.
But just as no one pops out of the crevice ready to form a stone hammer, so too is no child born prepared or able to fabricate gods or religions. Religion–even in its “lower” forms like Animism–is obviously a far too sophisticated concept for a newborn. The lack of religion or spiritual/theistic beliefs is, by contrast, as simple as can be and is what we would expect to find in a newborn human, goat, or pine tree.
It is ironic to me how the sophisticated concept of religion once indoctrinated in a child tends to lead to simplistic thinking further on down the line, while the utterly simple and uncomplicated concept of atheism–natural in every creature born to Earth–tends to facilitate a more broad and sophisticated intellect down the road of life in many humans.
I cannot disagree more. Atheism is not “arrived at” at all. It is simply a default position.
Though you could perhaps say that atheism is a concept that is not RE-arrived at (i.e. in adolescence or adulthood; once one realizes that the religion forced on them is a sham) without serious thought and study. But all that thought and study is necessary only because the person in question has the difficult task of disentangling him/herself from the powerful and pervasive presence of religion in so many day-to-day affairs. He/she must also face the ridicule and sometimes hatred from the indoctrinated theists all around him/her. It is not a decision to be made lightly–even though it is a simple choice when based only on the logic and rationality of the situation.
Ditto.