Good one.
and then he added,
“Speaking of analogously, about the book of Genesis”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh
I’m sorry, Justin. I think the point I was trying to make was probably overwhelmed by the rest of the explanation.
You wanted to know how to test the spirits. My understanding of this is that you wish to be able to discern whether or not a spirit or perceived truth originates with God.
I’ll ask you to read these three verses again for they do indeed address your question.
1BELOVED, DO not put faith in every spirit, but prove (test) the spirits to discover whether they proceed from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world. (Those not sent by God ,but rather, by the adversary.)
2By this you may know (perceive and recognize) the Spirit of God: every spirit which acknowledges and confesses [the fact] that Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [actually] has become man and has come in the flesh is of God [has God for its source];
3And every spirit which does not acknowledge and confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh [but would annul, destroy, sever, disunite Him] is not of God [does not proceed from Him]. This [nonconfession] is the [spirit] of the antichrist, [of] which you heard that it was coming, and now it is already in the world.
You’ll never get a rebellious (demonic) spirit to confess Jesus Christ. Confront them with that and they quickly flee.
Love - Jesse.
These are pretty strong and clear passages. The problem is reconciling them with other passages such as
Quote:
Mat 7: 21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
**Morning Cosmodan! (Is it morning where you are?)
My understanding of this passage is that their motivation/heart condition was not ‘right’ with Jesus. Again, we come back to the truism that if what we do is not done with LOVE in our heart; the act may still be a good one, but we who do it for recognition, the love or power, or any other ‘self’ orientated reason, are not going to be ‘right’ with God and/or Christ. (1 Corinthains 13.)
The ‘Will of my Father who is in heaven’ is what? ‘You must love YHWH you God with your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole mind, and your whole strength… and you must love your neighbor as yourself. On this hangs the entire Law and (the teachings of) the prophets.’
Again, LOVE, Cosmodan. Nothing else we do matters if we fail to first LOVE. **
Quote:
Mat 25: 41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
In these passages it seems that those who acknowledged Jesus as Lord still weren’t right with him.
**Cosmodan, the part after that is key to the understanding of this passage. ‘To the extent that you did not do it to the least of these, My brethren, you did not do it to Me.’ (Matthew 25:45)
Again, Jesus makes no distinction between Himself and those who make up ‘The Body of Christ’ - His followers. This is why He said to the Apostle Paul, "Why are you persecuting Me,’ and not ‘Why are you presecuting my followers’?
That said, after much contemplation, prayer, study, and discussion with my husband, I’d like to alter what I said earlier in this thread about which prayers God does and does not listen to - and this is my opinion and understanding at present - nothing less, and nothing more.
I believe we’ve already established (Biblically speaking) that God doesn’t listen to the prayers of Christians who aren’t living a Christian life - IOW, as the Bible phrases it, ‘Those who are doing bad things.’
With regard to the rest of humankind, it is evident from the Scriptures that God has listened to, and does listen to, the prayers of ‘ALL THOSE EARNESTLY SEEKING HIM.’
Cornelius, the first person the Apostle Paul was sent to, had prayed to God and God sent Paul to teach him. Therefore, although Christ had been in the world and had been preached in the world, Cornelius didn’t know Him, but he did believe in GOD.
All things (as in all things in the Bible) considered, and what I know and believe (AKA my opinion, belief, and understanding of) I believe that, as stated in the Bible, ‘GOD IS THE REWARDER OF ALL THOSE EARNESTLY SEEKING HIM.’
This does not negate Jesus’ statement, ‘I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me,’ as those predisposed (having the right heart condition and will) to recognizing the truth ‘My sheep will know My voice,’ and ‘Everyone who can hear the Truth listens to Me,’ will immediately know Jesus’ voice when they hear it.
While it is true (again, Biblically speaking) that God first calls people to Christ, and through Christ they are reconciled to God The Father, nowhere in Scripture does it say that this reconcilation must take place prior to death.
The Great White Throne Judgment (which you descrbed in part above), does not take place until after the thousand years have ended (The dead who did not know Christ are not resurrected until after His thousand-year reign. Rev 20:5), and it as this time that all humankind will be judged - except those who were already alive and ‘in Christ’ at His return.
So, the conclusion I have reached is that GOD does listen to the prayers of ALL people ‘WHO ARE EARNESTLY SEEKING HIM’ regardless of the religious label they wear while on this Earth.
Thank you for making me think more deeply about this particular subject. My tendency has always been not to judge people, but rather to look upon all as children of GOD, as I have always believed that GOD loves us all and that ‘Christ died once for ALL people.’ I had not previously stopped to wonder whether GOD listens to the prayers of those of other faiths. I know that (the Bible says that) GOD does not listen to the prayers of the ‘Unrighteous.’ But GOD is severest with His Own Church, and I applied that to ‘Unrightous’ Christians and others who knew but denied Christ, when my thoughts wandered in that direction.
Shalom Aleichem - Jesse.**
I think it’s clear that you have an epistemological problem, since people ernestly believe they are recieving god’s revelation while committing horrible acts. People have killed their children because they believe they are doing god’s will.
So how are we supposed to know they are wrong, since according to you, we can’t even turn to the bible for sound judgement since we need revelation before understanding the bible.
Basically I think you’ve shot yourself in the foot here. How can you trust your own perceptions of revelation, when they could be aberrations/demons/etc, just as they were for other people who have claimed to have had divine revelation?
Hunger and a general state of poverty and ignorance can’t hurt, either.
Greetings Meatros!
God cannot inspire others to go against His Own Will, and God opposes murder and forbids us to murder, therefor anyone who murders is acting contrary to the Will of God.
God’s Laws are written on the heart of every human being, ergo, every human essentially knows the difference between ‘right’ and ‘wrong’. He PERSONALLY writes them there so no one is ignorant of the fact that it is wrong to murder. The exceptions to this are those who are brain damaged to the point of becoming sociopathic and those who are demon possessed. The rest of us know better.
**As far as trusting revelation, please see the posts on testing the spirits **(above). God will never tell anyone to commit an evil act. (If you want to get into the cleansing of Canaan, the promised land, then it would be better to start another thread. In my experience, this is typically the next question that follows your line of reasoning in atheistic thinking.)
I think my feet are still intact - for the moment. 
Love - Jesse.
’Perfect LOVE casts out fear.'
Fear does not and cannot rule the heart of a true Christian.
Certain segments, perhaps all segments of Christianity and all other religions have used fear as a tool to control the masses at one time or another, that’s where the concept of a literal hell came from, but not all believers gave into that fear. In fact, 65 million people were burned at the stake during the Crusades because they refused to give into fear and 'believe the lie.'
The governments of the world use fear to send men off to fight and die in contrived wars which have nothing to do with freedom, but rather ‘who gets what.’
Certainly, there are ‘rice Christians,’ just as there are people ‘sold’ on atheism, which is generally regarded by most as a cop out, and an effort to evade taking responsibility for one’s actions, as well as a rebellion against GOD. It’s the old, ‘If I don’t admit He exists then I’m unaccountable to Him’ argument, unworthy of anyone who claims to hunger for truth and love.
Those who claim that Christians prey on those who live in poverty and are hungry and ignorant, should note that most Christian relief ministries DO NOT TURN AWAY NON BELIEVERS. I have yet to ask for the ID of any orphan I have been privileged to feed, or that of residents of destitute villages whose skills I have helped to revive, or of the children I have helped to educate by the Grace of God.
Only God cultivates His Love in the hearts of men, we missionaries merely plant the seeds. Belief professed to gain a bowl of rice is no belief at all and it is useless to either party to pretend otherwise. - Jesse.
Greetings Jesse.
Right off the bat, we share at least one thing in common. 
Okay, I could take issue with this, based on the bible, but it’s not particularly germane. This is your understanding, based on your interpretation of the bible, aided by your perception of revelation. My question is, how do you know it’s right? What if it’s just Satan tricking you or misfiring of neurons or whatever it is that you ascribe to those believers who do believe they are understanding god properly when they drown their children.
How does this square with what you’ve said about requiring a revelation in order to understand the bible? It seems to contradict it. Further, in the cases that I’m talking about these people did not believe they were wantonly murdering their children. They believed that they were committing righteous acts by killing evil demons who inhabited their children (IIRC).
How does one know what an evil act is prior to trusting revelation? This is the problem I see in your view, your are presupposing certain criteria (ie, that the person would believe their act to be evil) without dealing directly with what I’ve presented. The Christians I am referring to did not see what they did as an evil act - God revealed to them that their cause was righteous. So saying that god wouldn’t cause them to commit evil is a strawman when the whole contention is that we need revelation in order to understand what is meant by ‘evil’ and what is meant by god’s word.
I don’t know, I think it’s obvious that your contention here is wrong:
Unless of course, we all have it in our hearts what God’s words are, in which case, we all can understand the bible (which makes the quote above superfluous). Seems like you are trying to have it both ways.
**Only because you see no distinction between the LAW of GOD (the understanding of which is inherent in all of us, the exceptions I’ve mentioned notwithstanding) and the other parts of the Bible i.e. prophecy, history, and revelation, which we do require assistance from God to understand.
Does this help? - Jesse.**
You’ve responded to it, but I don’t think it’s fair to say you’ve given an answer.
Perhaps you need to explain what the laws of God are. With the case I am referencing, it would seem that the woman would have satisfied that criteria as she did not believe she was going against the laws of god.
Is one of the laws of god that humans cannot kill demons? If it isn’t then this bit of information isn’t relevant.
Right, I got that, but the trouble is, we aren’t God. It’s discerning what is contrary to the law of God. The lady I’m referring to believed that she was obeying God; ie, following God’s law.
Perhaps. I think you aren’t being clear. Maybe what is obvious to you, isn’t obvious to me, so I ask that you explain what you mean by the laws of god. Simply saying ‘murder’ isn’t one of them, as the lady I’m referring to did not believe she was technically murdering her children.
Of course it does, fear of hell.
Any chance you can you give us a cite for this number? I have very serious doubts about a significant number of people being burned at the stake during the Crusades, much less 65 million of them.
Regarded as a cop out by who? Can you give a cite for this? And this is quite arrogant, considering that Christianity provides the ultimate cop out. You sinned? Well just ask forgiveness! It’s all forgiven, god said so. Atheists are responsible to themselves and society, we don’t have a cosmic ‘get out of jail free’ card.
Um, so what? You just admitted yourself that you’re working with the poor/hungry. Where do you think missionaries in Africa go? The claim stands, Christians focus more on the poor, hungry, and ignorant.
Of course it isn’t, it gets someone a bowl of rice they didn’t have before.
Again, while I don’t mind spending time helping anyone, I too have a life with responsibilites and a publisher’s deadline to meet. If you are going to question the contents of the Bible, it seems the prudent thing to do would be to first READ it, and then come to the table with your questions.
Sound fair? - Jesse.
I’m rather surprised no one has picked up on this statement, but I find it very telling: truly, Jesse seems an example of the phenomenon discussed in this thread–that despite an intellectual recognition of the term “atheist”, she truly doesn’t grasp atheism.
That said, Jesse, allow me to introduce myself so as to broaden your horizons. I was raised non-religious and learned about the prevailing local religions (Christianity and Judaism) largely through slow cultural osmosis, and occasionally looking things up in encyclopedias. My family had no particular animosity towards religion; it was simply irrelevant to my upbringing. When other people talked to me about God, it always struck me as faintly silly–sort of like seriously discussing the myth of Narcissus and Echo as an explanation for reflected sound waves and a particular type of flower.
So, to get back to the OP, I can state that as far as I know, I was born an atheist.
Setting aside for a moment what constitutes ‘murder’, I thought the whole point was that one needed a true revelation from God in order to understand the bible. If that’s the case, then you can’t just refer to the sixth commandment, as you are begging the question.
Fine and good for God - but again, we aren’t god. We can only rely on our interpretation of the bible and on _____ (fill in the blank) that tells us that the revelation we are receiving is truly from god.
I can’t do that per your prior conditions. I haven’t had a revelation from god, ergo my interpretation of the bible is necessarily flawed.
Again, in order to do this I would have to trust my interpretation of the bible, which you have implied is impossible without the revelation of god. You can’t have it both ways.
FYI - I have read the bible. What I’m doing here is pointing out your premise is contradictory.
I’m not questioning the contents of the bible.
You specifically stated:
Would you like to now **reverse that statement **- since it doesn’t make any sense with what you are writing in your post here?
I actually missed that.
I think she believes what she wants to believe, despite what anyone says.
I’m an atheist and I’m not mad at god. To be honest, I’d perfer it if God did exist, even if it meant I wound up in hell.
We were speaking about the absurdity of believing that the giving and/or receiving of a bowl of rice would result in a change of heart in another human being. There is daily bread and then there is the Bread of Life. If you don’t know the difference - Google it.
Jesse.
**I see we have a problem with reading comprehension here. I’m trying to be patient, but you would try the patience of a saint!
I have already stated multiple times that the LAWS of GOD are PERSONALLY written in the heart of every human being. The ‘Ten Commandments’ are the best known LAWS of GOD, and the sixth of those ten Commandments is, ‘Thou shalt not MURDER.’ ** Which part of this are you having trouble understanding.
Um…Okay, we will see about that.
So you mean all ten of those laws are written on every human beings heart? All 600 + laws set forth in the bible? Which set of ten, btw? You aren’t being very clear here and I find it odd that you are attempting to blame my reading comprehension.
In any event, are you translating ‘murder’ as any instance that someone takes another human being’s life? If so, then you might have a point, if not, then as I’ve repeatedly addressed (and you’ve practically ignored) I’m not addressing murder.
The fact of the matter is that you are ignoring my primary concern Jesse. As I stated earlier:
Let’s take out the murder example. So how can you tell your revelation from god - which allows you to interpret the bible correctly - is correct?
Do you fear god?
Christianity is based on the carrot and stick of love and fear; obey god and he will love you, reject god and he will punish you forever. Surely you must agree that fear is a major part of Christian belief.
For that matter, have you ever had a revelation that, upon whatever testing you applied, turned out to be false?