This is correct. I should have been clearer. The determination of fault is an internal thought process for an officer to decide who is getting a cite and for what. It would not be very objective to include a personal opinion on the report. There actually have been people who show up later and say “I know I said I did that but I was mistaken. “
I have observed auto accidents and sometimes rather than write the report myself We have another officer take the report and use me as a witness. I don’t know whose idea that was or why but sometimes it’s done that way. It’s odd. During my first career as a Sherrifs Deputy I witnessed a zillion wrecks happen on the freeway right in front of me. We always wrote our own report.
Ah, thank you for the clarification! That makes perfect sense to me, and I can actually see a point to your scenario of having a second officer write the report and use the first officer on the scene as a witness: I have seen several reports where nothing was stated, but certain . . . sentiments? seemed to bleed through the very careful language of the report. The classic “it’s not what you said, but the way you said it” that made the officers opinions pretty clear. Adding another person to the process could edit that out quite a bit. But still, it’s more work.
What was always hilarious to me is that in most non-injury cases (and I refused to be ‘promoted’ to injury cases) the drivers were always passionate, the cops were doing their best to be impartial, and the adjusters were the realists. I have many fondish memories of dragging statements out of both parties and then calling the other adjuster. We’d both ask if they had read the police report (and we’d often share them with each other if they hadn’t) and we’d often have to say “I know what the report says, but my driver now says _______.” And then we’d have to try to save face for everyone involved while being as scrupulously honest as possible.
And back to the OP - this is probably what’s happening in the background of your claim - someone is trying to save face, whether it be for the private company, the driver, or the like, and since no one is hurt, they’re going to couch it in the least offensive manner possible. The language ‘inattentive’ driving is pretty clear - he wasn’t careful, but we don’t want to use the ‘loaded’ term careless. Although IMHO the distance he pushed you without knowing is clearly that or worse. Just glad no one was hurt.
Again, I was not defending the officer in this case. OP asked us to speculate on reasons why the officer might have chosen not to issue a ticket to the bus driver, and that’s all I did.
Yes, the police took about 45 minutes to arrive, which is pretty common in the area for something that isn’t life threatening or, at the very least something ‘in progress’.
So I did, let’s try it again. Same description as above…
This one is my dashcam video. (Sorry, I really hate that Colin Quinn was on in the background). It starts really early so you can see the school bus next to me as I pass it when the light turns green. At the 17 second mark, you’ll hear me say ‘oooh’. That’s when he changed lanes, now he’s behind me. A half second later, you’ll hear the initial impact, and then I get pushed until I’m into the wall. I honestly thought I was going to roll over, then convinced myself I was over reacting, then I saw the above video and this dash cam video and realized I actually had the two right tires up off the ground. I’m actually pretty lucky I didn’t roll over. https://i.imgur.com/HfoPjGW.mp4
Sidenote: I get a lot of ‘why do you have a dashcam’ type questions. Well, this was a great example. Granted, a rear facing camera would have helped even more. However, even with this video, it showed that I never changed lanes, the bus started out in a different lane. I wasn’t speeding, I wasn’t driving too slow, I didn’t break check him, I didn’t cut him off, I hadn’t just pulled out from a (street) parking spot or just pulled onto the road from a parking lot or side street. I was just cruising along with traffic, more or less next to him, for quite some time before he hit me.
In fact, after I kinda shook off what happened, I pulled my dashcam off the windshield and stuck it in my pocket. I didn’t want it getting lost (or stolen) as everything played out over the next hour or two.
But worrying about how it’s gong to affect the violator is irrelevant, at least It should be to the the officer doing his job.
I’ll tell you what, in the case of an accident where there is a clear traffic violation, if I don’t issue a cite and my reason is “I didn’t want him to get in trouble with his job” I’m going to be in a trick bag with my superiors. It’s not the same as just pulling someone over for something and having discretion to cite or not. Accidents can and do have civil and even criminal implications. Many agencies have orders in their SOP that at an accident scene where there is a clear violation a citation WILL be issued, no discretion.
To the OP, sometimes cites are issued later. Mailed to the violator or served in person. So that driver could still get tagged. The reasons for this can vary.
I agree. But if you quote me and then say “that’s irrelevant,” it looks like you’re taking issue with what I said, rather than whatever the officer’s motives may have been. I never said the cop was right to worry about the violator.
Huh? My wife or I have been in four accidents in the last 22 years. Two in Massachusetts one each in Georgia and Maryland. In each case either my wife or the other driver have been cited. In no case was there a police officer on the scene until after the accident. In each case there was thousands of dollars worth of damage, and in one case a minor injury.
Twice the citation was for following too closely (once my wife and once the other driver) and twice for failure to yield (once my wife and once the other driver). I still have a copy of one of the police reports and it states right on there that the other driver was cited for failure to yield (the driver just merged in from a side road right into the side of our car). The police report was not issued on the spot, I had to go to the police station to get it (and pay $6 in copying fees) and then forward it to my insurance company.
The time my wife got a ticket for failure to yield it wasn’t even a collision between cars, she pulled out into traffic and a car coming round the bend went off the road and into a tree to avoid hitting her. She vehemently disagreed with the citation and she was acquitted (or whatever it is called because it is not a criminal proceeding in Georgia) in court, but the insurance companies decided it was her fault. So she had no ticket, but still an at fault accident on her insurance record.
Now my turn to apologize for lack of clarity. The reasons why there are frequently not a determination of fault on the police report (or citation issued) can be complicated, but for me, the vast majority of my claims were disputed loss - if someone admits up front to the cops at the scene what happened, yeah it can be easy, but even then, they can change their mind. Otherwise it’s statement vs statement, and there is rarely sufficient unbiased evidence to make a decision. And this is leaving out @pkbites confirmation that the ticket may be issued after all the evidence is entered in.
One of the most common examples is a side-swipe accident. Both parties will swear up and down that the other person entered into their lane (or a third party was about to hit them and they moved to avoid this unidentified other car), and there is no security camera/out of vehicle witness to support other sides. Yes, we can look at the locations of vehicle damage, and statements based on where they were going to see if there’s circumstantial evidence, but in the end, it’s up to the adjuster to try to figure out both the truth, and the best outcome for the client.
Which brings me to my next point, that the determination of fault for insurance purposes, and citations are not absolutely related. Accidents, which go on a shared database of claims responsibility but not as points against your license in most jurisdictions unless there was a citation involved. The insurance company you have at the time (and presumably any others you want to apply for) want to evaluate their risk of loss. Most states rule out rating on non-fault losses and Comp claims, but the At-Fault determination is largely left up to the companies themselves to determine.
In the example of your wife’s accident, it could go either way, as if you’re pulling out into traffic in most jurisdictions you are liable for accidents directly resulting (I am VASTLY oversimplifying here). It could go either way because they apparently didn’t come into direct contact with your car, and evasive actions are a very wibbly/wobbly area when determining fault. But ultimately, yeah, they have the right under the legal terms of your insurance contract to determine fault. And again, drastically oversimplifying, in a disputed loss it’s rarely 100%. I’ve had claims go 80/20, 60/40 and even 20/20/100% (multi car pileup- where # 2 (middle) hit # 1 (front), Then # 3 stopped just in time before our driver # 4 rear ended # 3 pushing them into # 1 and # 2. So we made the damages slightly worse to # 1 and # 2, but was responsible for everything to # 3.
But for most carriers, any accident in which you are determined to be 51% of more at fault is considered ‘At Fault’ even if there is some degree of shared responsibility.
Okay, that was a book. But going back to the OP. “Should the other driver get a ticket?” Well, that’s up to the cops. It is entirely out of your (the non-fault party) control, and the best you can do is be accurate and clear in your description of the full events. And I must say that when I was doing claims 10ish years or so ago, I would have loved the current dash cam options and the like, and we in turn were envied by the old timers for being able to view Street-view google maps to actually get the layouts of interesections!
“Does it even matter?” Well, that’s the actual hard one IMHO. Does it matter to the future of the person causing the accident? It can - for most carriers (I have only worked for 2, but shared with more) the At-Fault accident is going to the bigger deal in future rate increases, unless the ticket involved is unusually severe (Reckless, and depending on carrier, DUI). If the driver is consistently having issues, then they can lose their DLN or CDL, which may have big effects on their future, but (arguably) takes a provably bad driver off the road… ideally.
Sadly, the number of claims I’ve had with drivers with a suspended license on the road was also . . . not small.
Not at all. I just meant that the traffic officers empathy for the violator is irrelevant in accident cases and they need to override that.
Like I mentioned before, a violation that caused an accident needs to be dealt with differently that a violation that lead to being pulled over. Have I let speeders off with a warning because they were in a work vehicle? Absolutely. But if such speed had caused an accident there are different implications involved and a cite is issued. Accidents reduce an officers discretion down to almost none.
You certainly know it happens though, right? I’m not saying it’s a good thing, but I can certainly see a police officer taking that into account if they think it results in no harm. Their judgement may be poor, but they are still human. I think @Machine_Elf was pointing out actual possible reasons for the the lack of a ticket in this case, not trying to justify them or be a proponent for them.
And frankly, though I don’t like the idea of looking out for the interests of such a careless irresponsible driver as in this case it’s certainly good to think LEOs are also human and do have some care to mitigate the effects of doing their jobs on people. I’ve been given speeding tickets in the past where the recorded speed was clearly minimized by the ticketing officer. I will say selfishly that it was entirely justified in those cases.
Yep. Which is why some agencies have in the written policies mandating a cite be issued over clear violations resulting in an accident. And let me tell you, violating written policy is the #1 thing cops get fired for.
I’m surprised here that no mention has been made of any on-the-spot sobriety test. The bus driver pushed the car for a block, then drove on for another half a block before stopping, and then professed to be totally unaware of what happened??? WTF? Did he actually say that to the responding officer? Did the responding officer demand a sobriety check?
Want to know what makes it even worse…he continued on with his route. In fact, the supervisor made a small fuss about him needing to get back out on the road soon due to the driver shortage. All I could think is ‘yeah…not my problem’. Had she pushed the subject, I would have told her that if he leaves I’ll report it as a hit and run.
There weren’t any passengers on the bus, the officer said (in the report) he seemed sober, or however it was worded, said the same thing about me (checked the report, it says “appeared normal”). He didn’t appear normal to me, several bystanders also said he didn’t appear normal.
Hell, I would have assumed the supervisor would have pulled him off the route until they could do, at the very least, a drug test.
But, yeah, he did seem…odd. The only thing I can think of is that maybe his employer instructs them to deny deny deny until a supervisor gets there and then let them do the talking. But that just made him sound intoxicated on something. IF that was the case, I think the better thing to do would be to instruct them to call the police, call their supervisor and then, assuming there’s no injuries, remain in their vehicle and not talk to anyone until the supervisor gets there.
The officer’s report says “THE DRIVER OF THE SCHOOL BUS STATED THAT HE NEVER EVEN
SAW UNIT 2 DIRECTLY IN FRONT AND BELOW HIM AT THE TIME OF THE CRASH”
As of right now, I still don’t think he’s received a citation. Though not everything is always available for the public to see (easily) for one reason or another. Sometimes it’s a jurisdictional thing, sometimes it’s just a matter of a name being misspelled.
Was the front end of the bus noticeably damaged? If so, odd that he would continue driving it. The supervisor should have had it brought in for maintenance.
Did the responding cop(s) hang around to investigate the scene and collect evidence? Tire marks of your wheels being shoved along the pavement? Photos of your car, the bus, and the retaining wall?
Did Zombie Patrol Guy clean up the evidence before the cop(s) got there?
Were I a parent of kids on that bus driver’s route, I would NEVER want him driving my kids Regardless of citations–and who wouldn’t agree he earned one?–I’d be most concerned about this guy having the lives of children in his hands.
Were I in your shoes, I’d contact the school district’s superintendent. Send him/her a copy of the footage and point out the risk of future liability for the district. The supervisor’s primary concern seemed to be being short-staffed; secondarily, she didn’t want you to sue or raise a ruckus. I think you should go over her head. There are lives at stake, and I wouldn’t count on that driver learning a lesson.
No, not really. I only saw a tiny, tiny amount of damage to the bus, which may or may not have even been from my car. In this picture you can see a white scuff mark on the hinge bar swing thing and a small white scuff to the right of it. Mind you, my car is black. The license plate was also slightly bent.
Keeping in mind that bumper and the hinge thing is heavy gauge steel and my bumper is plastic (and my trunk lid of, what, stamped steel or aluminum. This accident wasn’t going to disable the bus.
I don’t recall if they took pictures and there wasn’t a whole lot of evidence to collect. He may have taken pictures, I’m not sure, but he did ask the owner of the retaining wall for an estimate of the damage. Zombie Patrol guy was already out there re stacking bricks (he must do their handyman type work). The business owner says ‘how much of it’s damaged’ to which Zombie guy looks up, exasperated with a non-sarcastic but ‘duh’ tone to his voice and says “ALL OF IT”. So, that damage was at least documented in the report. And looking at the report again, I see it says ‘zero’ for 'number of citations issued. Since the report came out nearly 3 weeks after the incident, I’m guessing he’s not getting a ticket.
Anyway, to answer your question, zombie patrol guy didn’t do anything other than act like your typical tweaker until the cops got there. Like, I’m on the phone with the police and he’s in my ear describing the accident to me over and over and over. Then I’m calling work let them know what’s going on and he’s still, literally 2 feet from me giving me the play by play and telling me how to handle the insurance and the towing. I finally had to tell him to go away since I can’t listen to him (and all his non-sense) while I’m on the phone or talking to the police or whatever.
That’s actually a really good idea. Like I said earlier, while the police were dragging their feet, I considered calling a local news crew, just to make sure no one left and to put a spot light on them.
The problem is, the bus didn’t list a school district name, it appears to be a private company no (intentional) web presence. However, some detective work (or getting lucky and seeing the bus at a school) would get me a lead. But regardless, I wouldn’t do anything until the insurance is totally settled, and even then I’d be worried about getting sued.
If I was going to do it, I think I’d have to email a school, act like I was an innocent bystander who just happened to see the crash but also some how has enough info to get a copy of the police report or otherwise see that the driver didn’t get a ticket.
I suppose even a simple email, to a school or the company, anonymously, saying ‘My kid rides on your buses, I witnessed that crash, could you please confirm that driver is no longer with your company’ would work as well.
However, now that I think about it, I could contact the head honchos at MPS (the Milwaukee Public School system). The handle all the public schools in the city of Milwaukee. This bus co may service some of them. Even if it doesn’t, they’re probably aware of them and can pass the info along.
Oh, one other thought that seems a lot less convoluted, I could probably just call the police station and ask if he was given a ticket (even if it’s under the guise of my insurance needing to know) and if not, why not?
IANAL, but who would sue you? The driver? Based on reporting something that actually occurred? If you frame the incident as cause for the superintendent’s concern, keep the tone dry, and stick to the facts like a police officer would, what would be the basis for a suit? I wouldn’t say anything like, “This man should be fired!” I’d send the footage, describe what happened, relay the driver’s remarks, and express safety concerns. Hopefully the district will take it from there.
And maybe include one more thing. Here’s a manual for school bus drivers. As you can see, there are blind spots, but from what I can see, there are left-and-right cross-view mirrors (p. 3) designed to minimize the blind spot in front of the bus and avoid hitting children and others. Also, see p. 7 re: blind spots and lane changes. Whether or not there was a blind spot that hid your car, it seems to me a reasonably alert, cautious school bus driver would not have hit your vehicle. If you agree, you might mention this.
As for not knowing which district the bus company serves, that should be easy enough to find out, since you have the name of the company. Start with the district in which the collision occurred, call the offices, and ask what bus company they use.
Whether the driver is fired or the district switches bus companies is not something you can control, but you’ll be doing a huge public service by making the district aware.
For shits and giggles, lets just say they sue me for defamation. Now, if all I did was present the facts in a 100% honest and verifiable way (video, witness statements, police reports etc), sure I’d win. But I’d also have to lawyer up and, frankly, that’s not something I’m terribly interested in doing…or paying for.
Hence the reason I’d rather ‘leak’ some info to a school district or local news with enough relevant information, that any bystander would have, that they could easily figure the rest out on their own.
For example, if I emailed a news station and said I was on the corner of X and Y street when I saw the accident and when I talked to the bus driver (and here’s his name and bus co) he seemed disoriented and confused, but noticed the cops never gave him a sobriety test and it appeared that he continued on his route afterwards and I noticed he hasn’t even been issued a citation. It seems very concerning that this person may still be driving kids to and from school every day.
At least if I did it that way, at most, the news could contact me (and I could provide them with the videos), but they’d have to proof that I initiated it.
Just to reiterate, the blind spot thing, I only gave as a reason, not an excuse. If I, in my little car, change lanes into a motorcycle in my blind spot, it’s still my fault and I can’t believe I’d walk away without a ticket in hand.
Now, I wasn’t hurt (other than a sore neck and old shoulder injury that started bugging me again), but at the beginning when it appeared their insurance company was dragging their feet, a few people suggested I call an ambulance chaser and let them figure it out. While I’ve never used a lawyer (in that sense), the one time, and this was actually part of that old shoulder injury, I said, ‘just asking questions’ tone of voice said ‘do I need to get a lawyer?’, things did move a bit smoother after that.
