What you consider dubious is in fact the law in Québec, as cited above.
Compare it to how the problem of clogged intersections are dealt with by the law in Québec’s neighbouring province of Ontario, where the law is in line with what you want the Québec law to be:
“Necessity” is the important qualifier here. If I want to turn left at an uncontrolled intersection from a busy two-lane street (or into that there driveway), I have to stop and wait for oncoming traffic to leave me a gap: that is stopping a vehicle in a way that obstructs traffic (cars behind me).
Perhaps the clause is clearer in the original Acadian.
Just to clarify, I am talking about a situation where the street I want to turn left onto is clear and open, but a steady stream of oncoming cars is preventing me from making a left-hand turn.
I was taught that it was OK (in Illinois) to move into the intersection while waiting to make the turn. Even if the light turns red while you are waiting (because oncoming traffic was still entering the intersection during the yellow), you are not afoul of the law if you are waiting because it is not yet safe to make the turn. Once it is safe, you go ahead and complete the turn even if your light is red (when you were already in the intersection).
Am I mistaken that there aren’t states where the above maneuver is illegal? I thought I had read somewhere that in some states you have to wait for an opening in oncoming traffic before entering the intersection.
Thanks, that was precisely my understanding in all jurisdictions I know (excluding “box” junctions that explicitly prohibit it); and precisely my question - I would like to understand if there are really other jurisdictions that don’t work this way.
I’m not yet convinced that Quebec is one of them, based on the statutes cited.
In Seattle the DOL says it’s illegal and the driving test asks that exact question and DOL says correct answer is the one where you don’t enter the intersection.
There is an article in a local newspaper about it and the article shows the two laws covering the situation and says there is some ambiguity, but the police are trained that it’s illegal. Police also said they don’t generally ticket for the situation.
Do you have links? Not doubting you, just interested - and I may well drive there next year.
Also, the general don’t-block-an-intersection law in P.Q.:
BTW, folks who visit Quebec should also be aware of the no-turning-right-on-red in Montreal (it used to be the entire province), and on the superhighways no-passing-on-the-right, and the leftmost-lane-for-passing-only.
Thanks, I accept that this must include left turns, since a search of those statutes shows nothing else explicitly for left turns. (It seems poor legislative practise not to be explicit that this includes left turns, since this differs from the large majority of other jurisdictions.)
So it seems Quebec is, indeed, a jurisdiction where you cannot ever pull forward into an intersection to wait to turn left.
Wow,
a strict reading of that would say that on a two-lane road (one lane either way) in Seattle, you may not make a left turn into, say, a driveway, if there is oncoming traffic and a car behind you will have to stop to let you wait for a chance to turn.
I seriously doubt that ever gets enforced to the letter.
Note: I just re-read the article and police have multiple opinions, they are not trained one way
One of the arguments I saw on a tangled Reddit thread was that people turning right have the right-of-way over people turning left, so, if the light turns red, any in turning right would block the left-turner. Except, strictly, right turn on red requires a full stop, during which time the left-turner becomes traffic to which the right-turner should yield (a right turn on red is supposed to be on the premise that the path for the turn is clear in both directions). It is kind of one of those conundrum thingies.
Around here, when the light turns yellow, as many cars as possible enter the intersection before (and sometimes after) the light turns red, so a left-turner will usually have to wait long enough that cross traffic will have greens. On the other hand, it is not legal to run into another vehicle merely because it is in your way just now. Drivers may not enter an intersection solely on the basis of a green light, the intersection must be clear, and you really do have to slow down, or at least not speed up, if someone is turning left in front of you at a reasonable distance.
Good grief, of all the controversial things out there, how difficult can it be to just decide and write the law clearly and promulgate a consistent enforcement policy? It’s a pretty significant safety issue, you really don’t want people sitting in a busy junction hesitantly wondering “should I be here?”
I heard this told (actually sung!) by a stand-up comic with a college degree in Philosophy as, “Two wrongs don’t make a right, but three lefts do.”
Not helpful for those waiting for a left turn, though.
In a defensive driving course, in Texas, I was told that, in Texas, when making a left turn with a standard green light (no arrow), that oncoming traffic has the right-of-way, and has a right to enter the intersection. Since the other drivers have the right-of-way, the left-turner does not. When the light turns yellow and then red, if you are in the intersection, you STILL do not have right-of-way.
The recommendation was to wait behind the line until you had a clear path to complete the turn. Or wait for a turn arrow. Anything else could earn you a citation, in Texas.
I have been a licensed driver in California for 45 years. Can you tell me what section of the Vehicle Code says this?
California Vehicle Code 22526 seems to say that you can’t enter the intersection on a yellow to make a left or right turn if there is insufficient space to clear, but nothing about entering on a green:
From what I can tell, (a) applies to vehicles crossing the intersection, while (b) is for turning vehicles.
California code section 21800, “Right of Way”, primarily concerns itself with uncontrolled intersection, but the key clause that begins the sections says that a vehicle approaching an intersection must yield to a vehicle that is already in the intersection. This would mean that if your light turns green while there is someone waiting to turn left across your path, you are obligated to let them proceed (this is basically reiterated further down in the section). Again, as above, it does not say anything about being able to move forward on a green to wait.
We need roundabouts. Then issues like this would go away, because everybody is turning left in a roundabout.
Thanks to both. 
Oh-- in traffic circles as we call them, everyone turns to the right to enter.
I was trained that you could pull into the intersection on a green light to make a left turn. I believe I have heard some people describe this maneuver as “claiming the intersection.” I have also heard that claiming the intersection is legal in all U.S. states but I’ve never checked whether that’s really true. I suspect there is enough ambiguity in at least some state statutes that some police officers will cite you for claiming the intersection if you are still there after the light turns red.
It seems like there are several “anti-blocking” statutes that prohibits turns where you don’t have space to clear the intersection. Anti-blocking statutes make it very clear that you can’t enter an intersection if, wherever you are headed, there isn’t space for you to fit your car. These anti-blocking statutes are aimed at preventing you from “blocking the box” when you get stuck in the intersection after the light changes because you have no place to go. Blocking the box causes gridlock because if the intersection gets blocked, no one can move through it.
The anti-blocking statutes don’t unambiguously answer the question about claiming the intersection while yielding to oncoming traffic. In fact, most of the anti-blocking statutes cited above would seem to allow it. When you claim the intersection, your problem isn’t that you don’t have a place to go, it’s that you can’t get there safely. Once the light changes and the oncoming traffic stops, you will be safe go and you will have plenty of room to do it. In a sense, claiming the intersection just allows you to be the first person to go when the light changes to green for traffic coming from the other direction. And that makes sense, since you, in fact, had a green light to proceed through the intersection before any of the cars waiting at the cross light. Furthermore, as someone above noted, the light turning green doesn’t give you the right of way if there are other cars in the intersection. That seems to make it very clear that even if you have a green light, you have to yield to a car that already claimed the intersection. It should also be obvious that when the light turns green, you shouldn’t feel free to just ram whoever is in your way. You wait the half second it takes for them to go and then you proceed.
I was also trained that only one car at a time could claim the intersection on a green. In other places, the number of cars claiming the intersection seems to be limited only by the number of cars that fit in the intersection. I’m not sure what the right answer is here. I could probably argue it either way depending on the facts and the statute.