I was trying to explain to a friend that the e. coli that makes people sick and dead is not the same e. coli that we non-dead people have lounging in our intestines; otherwise anyone who ever took a bath without a preliminary betadine (:P) enema would be dead, right?
She remains unconvinced, and I remain unconvincing.
If I were to say that today’s tomatoes are an index of the decline of Western man I should be thought a crank but nations do not, I think, ascend on such tomatoes.
–Russell Hoban in Turtle_Diary
There are many different strains of Escherischia coli which can inhabit our bowels. Most are generally harmless, unless they are wiped towards a woman’s urethra were they can swim up in to the bladder and cause a painful infection there.
There are several different ways in which other E. coli strains can harm us however.
ETEC = EnteroToxic E. coli
This bug secretes toxins which cause the gut to keep pouring fluid into the intestines, move the fluid alond at an unusually fast rate +/- cramping, and reabsorb relatively little of the fluid in the colon. Result = copious amounts of watery diarrhea x several days.
EIEC = EnteroInvasive E. coli
This bug invades into the lining of the intestine. It usually causes diarrhea, but can last a lot longer, and can cause local complications.
EHEC = EnteroHemolytic E. coli
This includes the infamous O57:H157 strain that can be lethal, even in healthy young people. It invades through the intestinal lining, gets into the bloodstream, and secretes toxins there that can cause red blood cells to break apart, blood vessels to leak or clot off, and organs to stop working. Most cases, thankfully, do not progress this far.
There is also another class call EPEC = EnteroPatho_________ E. coli, but I don’t remember what makes it different, and don’t have time to look it up right now.
Bottom Line - the vast majority of E. coli strains are fairly harmless, and quite helpful in maintaining the environment in our gut, but there are some bad actors out there…
Sue from El Paso
Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.
Sue, isn’t E. coli also considered an opportunistic pathogen? That is, plain old normal E. coli can multiply out of control and cause illness if the normal balance of microflora in the intestines is disturbed?
Or maybe it’s one of the other normal gut flora that gets out of control if E. coli levels are reduced? I disremember now.
Some days you’re the dog, some days you’re the hydrant.
Thanks, Majormd, for your helpful info. A couple followup questions, though.
You give the names of some of the harmful strains of E.coli, but what is the name, to distinguish it from the others, of the garden variety E.coli? and
I appreciate learning about the different strains that are harmful, but I anticipate that this won’t entirely address my friend’s fears, which are that the garden variety E.coli is also harmful–not to say deadly. Her 18-month-old pooped in the bathtub and she practically had the house demolished: she yanked the kid out of the tub, scrubbed him with antibiotic soap (which see elsewhere in this forum, I know), bleached everything, ran all the toys through three cycles of the dishwasher, and couldn’t sleep for days, sure that his head would rot and fall off. (For this, of course, I blame the media [the late 20th century party game, like 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon: find the quickest route to an irresponsible media on any given topic] for reporting all these instances of death by E.coli without distinguishing the strains.) Can * E. coli varietus horto*, under normal circumstances, be considered dangerous?
–lissener
If I were to say that today’s tomatoes are an index of the decline of Western man I should be thought a crank but nations do not, I think, ascend on such tomatoes.
–Russell Hoban in Turtle_Diary
Try scrolling down to the section on Children, or Specific Conditions/Aspects, which describes and discusses the E. coli conditions Majormd describes above.
Some days you’re the dog, some days you’re the hydrant.
Escherischia coli 0157 (I think thats the number) is the bad one you have to worry about… true e. coli is found in everyones gut but 0157 is the bovine or cow E. Coli and its reaction if violent in humans… our system needs OUR E. coli… but another strain… it cant handel.
I’m not sure about that, “Nothing to worry about” bit. E.coli and other intestinal bacteria (and what not in there) are encased in the gut can be damaging to us, even the common everyday varities. Wasn’t that demonstated in the Viewnam War pungi sticks?
Um, thanks, Jois, but I think we’re getting pretty far afield here: I was talking about my friend’s exaggerated fear of the presence of E.coli in our everyday lives. But I’ll be sure to tell her to avoid having her intestines punctured and to wear heavy boots if she goes strolling in the Jungles of Viet Nam.
If I were to say that today’s tomatoes are an index of the decline of Western man I should be thought a crank but nations do not, I think, ascend on such tomatoes.
–Russell Hoban in Turtle_Diary
Well, as I read this thread I get the impression that only some forms of E. coli are harmful and I don’t think that is so.
In the wrong place all E.coli can be harmful but I can’t find it in print.
The precautions mentioned don’t sound excessive to me until you get to the point where, “…couldn’t sleep for days, sure that
his head would rot and fall off.”
Reading Cecil’s take on E coli you’d think every guy who scratches his butt would get an E coli infection - but that doesn’t happen.
Babies can end up covered with poop and still not end up with E coli infections.
I’d still wash the baby up carefully and clorox the toys, tub, cloths and towels, but then I’d forget it.
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
I originally posted this topic with an agenda, which was that I believed my friend’s precautions wereexcessive; that the everyday presence of garden variety E.coli is notin fact dangerous (my sister has a bathtubful of little kids, and I’ve babysat and bathed them and come across the same situation, and there have not been any dire consequences–unless it can be blamed for their table manners), and I think I’ve seen that position supported by the resources suggested here.
Again, further support, I believe, for my contention that my friend needn’t lose any sleep over the inevitable bathtime floaters. After all, we have an unavoidably intimate relationship with our innards and their byproducts, and this is not a new thing.
If I were to say that today’s tomatoes are an index of the decline of Western man I should be thought a crank but nations do not, I think, ascend on such tomatoes.
–Russell Hoban in Turtle_Diary
Very simple, non-scientific point you can use to reassure your friend:
Before the poop got into the tub, where was it? It was in her kid’s GI tract, where it was apparently causing no harm.
Drinking water with this kind of bacteria is not to be recommended, but could also be reasonably expected to cause no harm in the intestinal tract if they were re-ingested.
That is not to say they are harmless if they get into the body somewhere other than the GI tract. In my earlier post, I mentioned these same bugs as frequent causes of bladder infections in women. If these bugs do get into the bloodstream, they can cause a great deal of harm, and be fatal if not treated right away. That is exceedingly unlikely to happen, however, even if the child had a cut or scrape.
Pulling the kid out of the tub & cleaning the tub & toys with standard bathroom cleanser seems reasonable. Perhaps the rest was over-the-top…
And the difference between “standard bathroom
cleanser…” and clorox is?
Comet cleanser, for example, is what? has what as a primary cleaning agent?
Or were you thinking of that foaming bubbles spray stuff which cleans and disinfects by way of what?
Or that other spray thay use in hospitals that smells so strongly - Lysol **Disinfect **Stuff?
I’d still wash the baby up carefully and clorox the toys, tub, cloths and towels, but then I’d forget it.
Majormd said: Pulling the kid out of the tub & cleaning the tub & toys with standard bathroom cleanser seems reasonable. Perhaps the rest was over-the-top…
Um, thanks, Majormd can drink as much of this water as she wishes but, no thanks for me.
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
standard bathroom cleanser actually meant whatever was under the sink at the time. It really did not have any hidden meanings or intended slurs - though I did mean that it need not be labeled antibacterial, nor must one leave a dripping wet child to run to the supermarket & get some special product. It can have clorox or not - the more important factor is using plenty of soap & water, & preferably before the dirty water has dried onto the toy/tub.
I believe I said that drinking poop-filled water was inadvisable, but that since the bacteria in the poop had already been living harmlessly in the child’s GI tract there was little likelihood of harm should the child have splashed some water in his/her mouth or even swallowed a mouthful or two on the way out of the tub.
“Garden variety” E. coli is not a single strain; it is any of many starins which do not have special mutations that allows them to secrete toxins, invade the intestinal mucosa, cause hemolytic-uremic syndrome, or otherwise wreak havoc.
They can be harmful in places other than the GI tract, but in the GI tract they are helpful. If you’ve ever noticed someone getting diarrhea while taking certain antibiotics, it’s because the normal good bacteria (E. coli and others) in the GI tract are being killed off by the antibiotic & other bacteria are growing out-of-balance. Augmentin(amoxicillin/clavulonate) is famous for this.
Ah, thank you, Sue - this was what I was confused about. I knew there were problems with opportunistic bacterial overgrowth, especially with antibiotic therapy, but couldn’t remeber if E. coli was the culprit or the one whose absence let some other bacteria grow out of control.
Sure is nice to have a doctor on the list!
Lawyers are nice to have too, but laws vary from state to state - medicine is the same everywhere!
Some days you’re the dog, some days you’re the hydrant.
ARGH!! Damn people if you dont believe me look it up!!! There are MANY DIFFERENT strains of E. Coli!!! The strain that our SYSTEM does NOT tolerate that we need to worry about is E. Coli 0157… that is the Bovine or COW strain that infects beef that has come in contact with the intestinal waist due to the improper GUTTING and piercing of the intestines of Cows in the processing plant therebye infecting the meat… and we really only have to worry about GROUND BEEF because all the bacteria gets mixed in and not just on the surface like in a steak… even a rare steak gets the OUTSIDE (the only part with the bacteria on it) cooked and sterilized. Ground beef if it is underdone will still harbor the E. Coli because it is mixed in.
We can ingest our own PEOPLE E. Coli because it is our OWN strain that our system recognizes… Bovine and other E. Coli strains our body does NOT recognize because it is DIFFERENT… and its toxins when it is attacted cause us to become very ill!
The whole Acidophilus bacteria suppliment pill thing is UNRELATED to the whole E. Coli thing!!! If you are taking mega antibiotics then the Acidopilus cultures will be helpfull in taking because they are benificial active gut microflora in the intestines that can be killed by the antibiotics just like the BAD bacteria, BUT THEY ARE COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO E. COLI. As far as I know there is no E. Coli culture pill to take as well…
