It is the new McCarthyism. Trial by accusation. It should run its course soon. But it is currently going strong. In the mean time people will fall from their positions, some to recover over time, some to fade away. Some of the time lags in these cases is great, but the accusation is enough. I may have touched your butt 15 years ago and I am sorry. Therefore I must resign my position as someone you never heard of.
McCarthyism for those who miss the reference:
The founder of Daily Kos (Markos Moulitsas) has come out in favor of Franken, Conyers, and any others with credible allegations of sexual harassment or assualt against them, resigning. And he lays it out with a pretty similar argument to mine:
The standard is (or should be) credible allegations. So “If a woman says so, and she was definitely in a position in which she might have been harassed or abused (i.e. photographs of standing next to the accused, or used to work in his office, etc.), and she has witnesses with whom she informed in the immediate aftermath of the incident confirm the account (i.e. she told her mom or sister or bff right afterwards that he squeezed her boob), and there’s no evidence that she’s fabricating the account, and especially if multiple women have come forward with similar allegations”, then yes, they should resign, IMO. One credible allegation is enough for me, multiple credible allegations just makes it obvious, IMO.
I no longer think I misunderstood you.
But you’re saying if there were 1000s of people accusing him of it, you’d be even more convinced it wasn’t deliberate sexual assault. Your position seems to be to defend Franken at all costs.
I can easily see a “puritanical” standard for the workplace and similar situations. Want to flirt, do it somewhere else. Two people want to, a way will be found elsewhere, Cupid laughs at locksmiths. For sure and for certain, no one should be allowed to use a position of power to obtain sexual compliance from the unwilling, period, full stop. Well, duh.
If that’s the “felony” standard, are there lesser crimes? Lesser penalties? If everything being said is accepted as truth, is Judge Moore more of a scumbag that Al Franken? To reduce to an absurdity, is littering as much a crime as dumping a metric buttload of poisonous crap into the river? Of course not, that is unreasonable. Ah! There’s the rub.
Perhaps it is reasonable to presume a degree of acceptance with a woman’s complaint of harassment. This is not strictly fair, since if she says he did and he says he didn’t, we lean towards the woman. I already do, it matters of birth. The decision to carry to term is hers and hers alone. The fact that a fetus has two potential parents doesn’t change that in the least. If you can’t find a entirely willing partner, you don’t make babies. Ain’t fair? Tough shit.
Which is to say that a bias in favor of a woman’s opinion is not entirely out of the question, perhaps we should consider that. Perhaps the social benefit will outweigh the occasional injustices, a net gain in human freedom, by moving some from Column A over to Column B. Does that mean its a good idea?
I am always pleased when I can answer a question without hesitation or doubt.
I don’t know. .
Yes, indeed.
That is not the condition under which Franken finds himslef, so no I’m not worried that we are cruising towards that.
There is the photo ( which, to me, is the worst of the evidence).
There are (now) 5 women (not a woman).
Franken has not denied the allegtions.
All of the women told other people at the time of the incident.
I can see why Republicans and science don’t mix.
Totally right, nobody was calling for his resignation before all the evidence piled up. Good catch, there, John, you got me again!
PS: By the say, this…
You mean the “worst” like the least convincing, or the most damning? Sorry, a little slow, a boor of little brain.
Does it have something to do with the nutty theory you’re advancing in this thread?
You didn’t mention the photograph. As I’ve said over and over, that is (to me) the most damning evidence. Do you agree?
I can buy “it was an accident while hugging for a picture” from a teenager, but once someone has lived for several decades as an adult, they should understand how not to grab a boob while posing for a shot. Especially if they’re a damn Senator. And there’s nothing ‘ambiguous potentially confusing’ about taking a picture, you put your arm around the person without actually grabbing their boobs, butt, or crotch, let the picture get taken, then move on. I can say that I have not ever accidentally grabbed a boob or butt while posing for a picture, and never thought this was a particularly rare or powerful skill, but apparently ‘not grabbing a butt while posing for a pic’ is a near-superpower.
So you didn’t even grab the boob, just briefly contacted it, and it was a situation where you couldn’t select arm position yourself because of the baby? Doesn’t sound anything like a professional entertainer (now politician) taking a picture while not holding a baby in his arms with plenty of time to pick a hand position, and also holding the grope for more than instant incidental contact at all. Also we have to bear in mind that we’re talking about a guy who considered taking a picture of himself groping (or faking a grope) an unconscious woman who he had a history of issues with to be fun and completely harmless until he got called out on it.
Well, that’s what you posted. Maybe you should post whatever it is that you want to argue instead of posting that if more witnesses come forward it proves that the groping was unintentional. The lengths people will go through to defend this sort of slimy behavior is amazing.
I don’t know about “most damning”, but it’s certainly damning. Even if it wasn’t actually touching – fake groping an unconscious person is still a violation of consent (if less severe than actual groping), since it’s using someone’s body without their consent (as the target of a lewd position) for one’s own amusement/entertainment.
If you can’t figure out how to not grope women, then it’s a good thing if you start treating their bodies like minefields instead of squeeze toys. Grabbing butts while taking a picture is something that SHOULD make you feel like you’re walking into a minefield.
That’s kinda what I mean by workplace “Puritanism”. Might even be workable, after a while, social norms adjust. I’ve worked in collectives, where issues of sexism were very sincerely examined. Thoroughly. Relentlessly. Pain in the butt? Yeah, but it pretty much worked, you can get used to it.
Right now, far too many men feel and act, to some degree, like women in the workplace are objects for their pleasure and amusement. Like how they wear their hair, or what clothes they wear, or what makeup they use, or who they are dating, or other personal details, are anyone’s business but their own.
If that’s how those men relate to and see women, then it’s far better if they see women in the workplace as minefields than the status quo. I think there’s a great chance that, just as we had (and still have!) to wait for old racists to die to make real progress on race, we might have to wait for old sexists and harassers and misogynists to die to make real progress on attitudes towards sexual misconduct, but at least we should do our utmost to protect women and hold abusers accountable in the meantime.
He makes too much false equivalence.
That is implying that the things that are alleged against Franken is as bad as that against trump, and that against conyers is as bad as Moore. I disagree.
Franken resigning is not going to make any difference of powerful men abusing women under their power. It’s not going to stop the Wendy’s GM from molesting the minimum wage workers making sandwiches. It is not going to make them suddenly realize that their actions are harmful and wrong, and get them to stop out of empathy for the women they are hurting. It is also not going to make them stop supporting people like Roy Moore, as you aren’t very well going to be upset with a DA in his 30’s hitting on 14 year old girls in the mall, when you are a GM in your 40’s and grab the ass of your underage employees every damn day.
If Trump resigned and Moore dropped out, then I could see an argument that Franken should also resign (I’m pretty much on with Conyers, if what is said against him is true, he knowingly crossed many lines.), but as long as their tactic is to deny and threaten accusers, and our tactic is to immediately resign to any accusation, then the people in positions of power will be only those who deny and threaten, and anyone who tries to make things right will be unable to, as they will no longer have that power.
I am a bit of an outlier on this, but I do believe in forgiveness. There are lines that can be crossed that are “unforgivable”, but to me, that line is a refusal to apologize. I would even “forgive” (for what that’s worth) trump and moore for their actions, if they owned up to them, and showed how they would make up for them, and most importantly, how they would no longer do those offending actions in the future. I feel Franken has cleared that bar quite easily, not so much on Conyers, but for Trump and Moore, they refuse to even acknowledge the harm they did, and continue to do harm with not just their threats against women who have come forward, but their creation of an environment where people like O’keef try to create false accusations just to discredit the plausible ones.
Anyway, I’m not saying that Franken shouldn’t step down, and in a perfect world where all our statesmen are perfect people above any scandal, he should. In a world like we have, where the allegations against him are not of someone who abused their power for sexual gratification or the sadistic pleasure that some get from harming others, but rather, at most, bad judgement, for which he has apologized and has taken steps to make amends, and the credible allegations against those who are not going to step down, who are going to get elected are of people who are abusing their power for sexual gratification and bullying, and have flat out called the accusers liars, and have used their positions to threaten them, it is not those who acknowledge their mistakes and try to repair the damage their mistakes did that we should be running out of public life.
I think we are largely on the same page here, but that last sentence has two extremes built in, the “least we should do” is “the utmost”. What limitations are acceptable to “the utmost”, because that does kinda imply “none”. See what I mean?
When taking a picture, don’t touch boob or butt. That’s puritanical? Sounds like simple, common sense to me.
Treat a woman like you would a man. Men are quite deft at avoiding inappropriate sexual contact with other men. And if accidents happen, apologies fly faster than in insults at a poker game. It’s not rocket science.