The Onion’s take.
Al Franken Tearfully Announces Intention To Step Down From Role As Harasser Of Women
And even with the Access Hollywood tape, how many of them wound up falling into line? How many of them still opposed Trump, say, the week before the election?
My recollection is that their opposition withered and disappeared in the same way that the #neverTrump politicians did.
That’s true. Most of us have known, or known of, people who touch others without their consent, and are revoltingly pleased with themselves for doing so.
Odd that if Franken is such a person, there have only been five accusations over a 17-year period.* If he’s a guy who likes to grope, would he really have groped so seldom?
This is one of the factors that lead me to want a more comprehensive investigation to take place. Let the women be enabled to tell their stories in full, in an official setting such as a Senate Ethics Committee hearing. Let them speak out and provide any supportive details that they can recall. Let them answer questions about what they experienced (in a private hearing, if they prefer–but on the record).
Let them be heard.
What I’m seeing from those who warn against the consequences of adopting an “accusation = guilt = removal from office” standard, is not that slimy behavior is defensible.
Instead, it’s doubt that there is reasonably-credible evidence that slimy behavior occurred–combined with a call for a full investigation.
Again: let the accusers be heard, in an official setting, as befits their dignity.
*2003 is the earliest date given by any of the five accusers. http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/30/politics/al-franken-groping-allegation/index.html
He’s talking about perception – that most people don’t pay close attention to this sort of stuff (having busy lives to go about), and thus it’s not terribly hard to convince lots of them that both parties are the same on this issue if they both have abusers that are tolerated.
In order to combat that, as a party, we need a very bright and clear line – credible allegations of harassment and abuse. We won’t tolerate harassers and abusers in our ranks (or we shouldn’t); they (the GOP) do and they will. We could be the party that very, very clearly stands against harassment and abuse in all forms, and paint the Republicans as the party of harassment and abuse.
It wouldn’t work for everyone, quite obviously, but it would avoid that situation in which busy voters can be convinced that both parties are the same on sexual harassment and sexual abuse.
I picked this one bit out of your post because I strongly disagree. Franken’s resignation will, at least, send a strong signal to the rest of Congress. No, it might not do much for Wendy’s CEO, but there are other way to addressing that.
But when there are credible claims against someone, and no significant repercussions ensue, then that sends a strong signal to other guys out there. It’s about time that folks (mostly men) started knowing there is a line that cannot be crossed without there being real consequences.
Well, which picture are we talking about, here? The one that is total and irrefutable proof, or the other one, the absolute proof?
Nah. I think the men who’ve been treating women as people all along won’t have much of a problem.
Now the men who’ve been treating women like objects might start treating them as minefields, but that would be a step in the right direction. 
That is still not what I said. The lengths that some will go to to distort the words of others in order to score “points” is quite amazing.
It also means that there is no time when a man can ever be in a position where a woman could make an allegation against them. So, no more hugging in photographs. Did you think that it was wrong that Franken hugged these women for the photos they asked to take with him? Well, you are arguing that it was. That it is never okay to touch a a woman in any way, even with their permission, as it is possible that they may take it the wrong way. They will also need to not be promoted into positions where they would need to work closely and unsupervised with a man, as it is possible that there could be allegations there.
This witch hunt may hurt some individual men, mostly men who actually do realize that their actions, intentional or not, did offend and harm women, but it is not going to harm the bosses who grab ass every day. It’s not going to get harassers out of the republican party, and it’s not going to get the republican party out of power. It is going to hurt the men who don’t mean to hurt women, and it is going to hurt women as they are viewed as a danger to any man’s career.
It’s not going to actually do anything to stop the sexual harassment that goes on every day.
Is it sexual harassment you want to have reduced and hopefully eliminated, or is it vengeance you want to get on those who have been accused? Your games may feed your recreational outrage, but they do nothing to address, much less solve, the actual problems.
If women are viewed as minefields, they will be shut out of many opportunities for advancement in their careers. If men are afraid of having a closed door meeting with a woman, then they will not be promoted to positions where that is necessary. Women will not be allowed to work one on one with a man. The accommodation required to ensure that there are always witnesses to all interactions of a man and a woman will mean that women lose out.
Not all butt or breast/chest touches are sexual. Why is it so hard for people to accept that the world isn’t black and white?
No, the other one.
The Democratic Party already stands for these things. Conyers is being asked to resign, and Franken will be investigated. This is an investigation he is welcoming.
On the other hand, Moore is about to win because Alabama’s Republicans have already forgiven his ephebophilia and sexual assault and it only took a week or two for Republicans to forgive Trump.
In the end, it doesn’t really matter what stance is taken now anyway. The best thing you can do is make sure there is a drip-drip of harassment claims a week or so before election day and to make attack adds with your Republican opponent lecherously eyeing little girls. Democrats are too strategically stupid and into “going high” to do any of this of course, and that is why sexual harassment is a Republican win.
I agree with your entire well-argued post (excerpted here).
Those Democrats who are certain that acting on the ‘accusation = guilt’ principle will bring the party respect and honor, are (in my opinion) not thinking this through completely.
Those on the right, of course, will only laugh at Dems for acting on this purity/“zero tolerance” idea. They will consider Dems to have demonstrated a new low in weakness and stupidity. And they will gleefully make use of the new tool the Democrats have handed them: anyone who stands in their way can now be removed, merely by accusation.
And quite frankly, independents will laugh, too. Or at least hold Democrats in contempt.
The standard should not be ‘We are the most pure’ or ‘We remove our people if they are accused.’
The standard should be: ‘We stand for due process and rule of law; accusers will be heard out fairly and their accusations fully investigated.’
Due process? That’s an antiquated notion it appears.
We should work to see it revived.
I’m not distorting your words. You literally stated that if another, male victim accused him of the same behavior, you’d find it more likely that the behavior was unintentional. Again, that’s what YOU said, I’m not twisting it.
It means that a person in general shouldn’t fondle unwilling victims while taking pictures, and stage photos of themselves fondling unwilling victims while they’re asleep, and other things of that nature.
It’s incredibly ironic that you accuse me of twisting your words for taking what you said at face value, but invent an absurd argument and claim that I’m making it. I’ve never made that argument or anything close to it.
What witch hunt? Al Franken has a photograph that he’s admitted was awful and numerous accusers who have people backing that they discussed the incident at the time. And the terrible consequence for him is that… he’s being investigated exactly like he requested. How exactly is that a ‘witch hunt’? It’s not ‘guilty until proven innocent’, it doesn’t rely on a single accusation, there’s even photographic evidence.
When you get to the point of unwanted groping, whether you meant for it to hurt women or not is really irrelevant.
When taking a picture, don’t make any physical contact, you mean? He hugged alot of people. People wanted him to hug them. The takeaway from this is that there will be no more hugging in photographs with celebrities or politicians. Not a big thing, but, IMHO, it doesn’t really improve anything either.
I don’t know that many people would be paying close attention to this stuff if Franken did resign. That in fact, means that the busy person thinks that the democrats are worse. The stuff that the republicans did wasn’t so bad it required resigning, but the stuff the dems did was so heinous, even their own party called for them to leave public life forever.
I don’t think that many busy voters would see it as a bright and clear line that is being followed, they’d just see more dems being vilified by their own party, and perceive the dems as more vile.
I don’t see what message it sends to congress. If something comes of the settlements and the lengthy and stupid process required to file a harassment claim, that could send a message, but Franken resigning, I don’t know. I mean, there are no repercussions against trump or Moore, so all that I get from that is that you don’t dare admit any wrongdoing, you attack your accusers as liars, and you threaten them with lawsuits. That’s the message that I see sent to congress upon franken’s resignation.
I think that there are many men in the middle. Men who don’t think that they have done anything wrong, but given that you don’t have to think or know that you did something wrong in order to have done something that gets you pilloried is going to cause them to be more cautious. And not cautious in a good way, in thinking about their actions and words, but cautious in a way that makes sure that there isn’t a problem in the first place. Also, the fear of false accusation is a real one. I am pretty sure that I have never intentionally done anything sexually to any woman that didn’t want it. That doesn’t mean that somewhere in my life, I have not unintentionally done something that may have caused offense. If I were to learn about that, then I would do what I could to make amends and prevent it from happening again. If I know that there is no amends to be made, then I am not going to allow the potential for that situation to arise. I know that there are women I have angered in the past. I’ve let a number of employees go, and disciplined many more. All it takes is one of these women to decide to come out with an accusation, and I could be toast, someone could ruin my life due to a misunderstanding of intent, or even by a completely fabricated story.
The only way to prevent that is to make sure that no woman ever has any way of claiming anything against you, and in order to do that, women will need to be always treated as suspect. I don’t see how that is going to be good for anyone.
We are seeing the end of the low hanging fruit, where the man who is accused looks at his behavior, and tries to see how it was offensive, and we are going to see instead a fight for life for every one of the accused. Deny, deny, deny. That’s the only way to win here. Whether or not you know the allegations are true, the first thing that should be released is that the accuser is a liar. Then you threaten them with libel. If your employer fires you for the allegations, then that is harm that has been caused, and then they have the burden of proving your actions and intent to a court. If you have admitted and apologized for your actions, you’re done for. If you accuse them of lying, and sue them for causing harm, you’ll be in the clear.
You have finally actually stated what I did state, so congrats. You still have entirely the wrong takeaway.
The point is, is that if there were a man that came out and said, “You know, Franken grabbed my butt, too.” then that would lead me to believe that the inappropriate contact of the women was not intentional.
It also mean that a person should never put themselves in any position where any sort of contact could occur, leading to women being shut out of things that are available to them now. I guarantee that we will not be seeing any politicians hugging people to pose for a picture again. No matter how much the person may want a pic with them hugging their favorite politician or celebrity, the answer will be “No.”
A big deal, not so much, but it’s not the last thing we will be giving up.
Okay, I apologize, I did not mean to twist your words. Are you saying that it is perfectly fine to continue hugging to pose for a picture, or not? I may have misunderstood.
The witch hunt that we are talking about right now. Are you talking about the photograph in which the subject of the photo has accepted his apology, but that you refuse to?
And when you get to the point of simply an accusation of unwanted groping is enough to ruin someone’s life, and any misunderstanding or miscommunication is an unforgivable sin, it’s not really relevant, both men and women will be worse off.
k9: The message it sends to Congress is: *Grope or otherwise sexual harass someone and you’re out. *
Now, if you’re going to argue that “Moore hasn’t been kicked out”, then go ahead and add to the above: So you need to ask yourself if you feel lucky. Well, do you, punk?
Here’s a complicated situation: suppose the spouse of a politician is an egregious abuser. The politician is not a party to any of this. But on the other hand, being the guy’s spouse gives considerable political power. (The politician had previously promised to isolate his spouse from politics, but this did not happen.)
What’s the consequence here, and for who?
No minefield is needed for men who don’t see women as objects for their pleasure or amusement. It’s really easy to not grope, harass, or assault women.
If you’re on a date and you lean in for a kiss, that’s okay. If you’re in the office, it’s not. If you’re in a meet and greet, shake hands and, for pictures, you can put your arm around their shoulders. But no butt, boob, or crotch.
It really isn’t that hard. Pretty damn easy, in fact.