Now Episode II is racist??? Give your head a shake people!!!!!

The BBQ Pit
101

The difference is that the crows in Dumbo clearly were stereotypes of Southern blacks-- there was nothing crow-like about their voices, they were simple racist caracatures, with clearly identifiable accents and speech-patterns, and idiomatic expressions clearly associated with a particular group, reinforced by the colour of the bird. Even in print, there is no ambiguity at all about the implied race of the crows: “But I’d be done see’n about everything when I see an elephant fly.”

The alleged “stereotypes” in Star Wars, (with the exception of Lando,) differ from this considerably. A racist stereotype of an Asian is, usually- Slanted eyes. Buck Teeth. Yellow Skin. Substitution of consonants, “L” for “R”. Exaggeration of honourifics. Confusion of pronouns. Neimodians have none of these charactaristics – it’s not that they simply don’t resemble asians – they don’t resemble asian stereotypes. As an exercise, describe any of the alleged racial stereotypes in Star Wars, without simply saying “Neimodians sound like asian stereotypes” or “Jar-Jar sounds like a west-indian stereotype.” Define the stereotype, and then describe how the character fits it. It seems to me that the Gungan gimmick is mainly about appending pronouns with “-sah”, and speaking in baby-talk. “Ex-squeeze me…” “You-sah gonna be in deep doo-doo.” This is “Jamaican” how? I don’t get it.

102

Ok, you asked:

Asian stereotype (“yellow menace villain”)- Asian ethnic speech patterns, “inscrutable”, smuggling, often dealing in opium and “white slavery”.
Nemoidians- Asian ethnic speech patterns, “inscrutible”, smuggling.

Jewish stereotype (“Shylock”)- Yiddish speech patterns, greedy, trading on the misery of others (pound of flesh).
Watto- Yiddish speech patterns, greedy, trading on the misery of others (he owns slaves for cryin’ out loud).

Black stereotype (“Steppen Fetchit”)- African American speech patterns (“Feets do yo stuff”), cowardly, clumsy, a servant of the white man.
Jar-Jar- He talks like Mushmouth, if that ain’t an African American speech pattern…, somewhat cowardly, clumsy, acts as a “native guide” for Obi-Wan.

I know I am now going to be beat up as a bigot because I defined the stereotypes, but I was asked to.

103

How are Nemoidians “inscrutable”? How are they involved in smuggling? Does this make Han Solo an asian stereotype? How were the Neimodian’s speech patterns “asian?” Their grammar wasn’t noticibly different from other characters, IIRC. Incidentally, I don’t think the Neimoidians sound Japanese so much as they sound a little like George Takei.

Again, I didn’t hear any Yiddish speech patterns. “Greed” I’ll give you, although, when your talking about Jewish stereotype, this is traditionally in the context of banking or some sort of commodity trading. Watto is a mechanic. “Trading on the misery of others” is so vague a descriptor that it’s useless.

He doesn’t talk remotely like Mushmouth. Mushmouth was indecipherable; Jar-Jar speaks some bizarre pidgin English that, while understandable, doesn’t sound like any dialect I’ve ever heard. “Servant of the white man” and “native guide” are totally unrelated. I hear “native guide” and I think “Hiawatha” not “Amos ‘n’ Andy.” As for clumsy and cowardly, what if the character is just a clumsy coward? Why does the fact that he’s clumsy and cowardly equate a stereotype of black people?

104

There are lots of actual Asian speakers here on the SDMB, both native and fluent non-native, who can explain to you why you’re wrong. Suffice to say that you are. Also, in the book “The Making of Episode I,” which was written and published before any controversy arose, Lucas notes his intentions for the Nemoidians to sound like Dracula from the Lugosi films.

Also, what were they smuggling? (Hint: Nothing.)

I can only surmise that you have never heard a Yiddish speaker. I have–lots of 'em, because they’re in my family. Watto? Not even close. Maybe Italian, if anything, but not even that.

First of all, no he doesn’t. Here is a page where you can view some episodes of “Fat Albert” with Windows Media Player. You can hear Mushmouth speaking around 7:29. Sounds nothing like Jar Jar. Mushmouth has a deep voice and ads a “-buh” sound after his vowels. If anything, Jar Jar might sound somewhere in between Donald and Russell.

Second, what exactly is an “African-American speech pattern?”

Third, what if he did talk like Mushmouth, or Donald, or Russell? That would mean that a black actor had come up with a voice for an animated character that resembles another voice that another black actor had created for another animated character. How, precisely, is that racist?

“Clumsy?” Yep–and it’s already been pointed out that his clumsiness is based on, and some of his actions are exact recreations of scenes from movies by silent-era white comedians. So how is that racist?

105

As far as Watto’s speech patterns go, watch the scene where he meets Anakin again. Then go watch the original Little Shop of Horrors. Watto sounds remarkably like Mr. Mushnik.

As far as Jar-Jar not sounding like Mushmouth goes, Oh-buh Kay-be, mesa muss be wronga.

106

I’m not going to beat you up for bigotry, because I doubt that you’re displaying any.

I would like you to explain just what “Yiddish” speech patterns Watto displays. Lots of people hold/held slaves and dealt in misery (Simon Legree, anyone?). On the other hand, as a slave master, Watto was not that bad: Anakim and his mother lived in their own quarters with, apparently, their own possessions; he never tormented Anakim or, that we saw, Anakim’s mother.
Without the Yiddish (or Ladino or something) speech, I saw no connection between Watto and any Jewish stereotypes. As I noted earlier, he did not display stereotypically Jewish (or even semitic) arm gestures. I can think of no phrase in which he “sounded” Jewish–whether Bronx or Anatevka.

I will grant that the Neimodians used an aspirated voice with higher tonal qualities, but those traits could be applied to multiple Asian languages (as perceived by most early 21st century North Americans) which led to the point I made earlier that several people I knew could not agree whether they were “supposed” to be Chinese, East Indian, or Japanese. I have a problem perceiving a stereotype that is confusing. What’s a stereotype if we do not all recognize what it references?

The Trade Federation was not smuggling anything that I recall; they were imposing a Mafia-like “offer you can’t refuse” on the Naboo. (This may be why some people thought they were “supposed” to be Italian, I dunno.) Certainly, they were not engaged in “white slavery” or drugs according to anything in the movie. I also found nothing “inscrutable” in their actions or words. Their lines could have been spoken by any number of characters in movies where some apparently powerful crowd is actually frightened of the people they thought they were hiring for help.

Jar-jar is more problematic, (although since reports indicated that Lucas let Best “invent” a lot of him, it seems rather odd to be accusing a black actor of deliberately perpetuating a stereotype). And, as I noted earlier, I know of no associations of black inhabitants of the West Indies that makes them seem stupid. Maybe I have missed some.

107

Wow, grendel, I can come up with actual, living, Yiddish-speaking people, while you counter with . . . another movie character. I take it you concede the point?

108

No, I want you to stop making grandiose statements like “The people who are sensitive to racism and stereotypes never see racism in things like Eddie Griffen’s characters.” Because if you hang around the right people (not necessarily black, but more than likely black, based on my experience), you will see this is not so.

You can be friends with whomever you like but don’t draw conclusions just from your social circle and what you “hear”, is all’s I’m saying.

</self-righteous jerk>

Hey, I bet when the movie first came out, people didn’t see the stereotypes right away, and if called on them, they probably would have defended them just as everyone is doing here.

When I told a friend about the crows in Dumbo, he told me I was just being overly sensitive. But then again, he likes to ask if I brought fried chicken, cheetos, and koolaid for lunch.

When I linked Watto to the image of a stereotypical Jew, I got lots of “Yeah, Jews are blue and have wings” thrown at me. If his speech patterns were closer to a Yiddish accent, would that argument still hold up?

How close to a stereotype does a character have to be in order to be considered as such?I guess this is really key to the conversation (which has been as interesting as its been frustrating, btw). Is language the ultimate criterion, or can other things (like demeanor, superficial appearance, accent, personality, etc.) be just as important?

I keep hearing “crazy” and “racist” and “overly sensitive” thrown about here for those of us who don’t automatically assume the best about these characters. Which I guess is fine. I just wish someone–anyone–would chime in and say, “Even though I don’t accept Jar-Jar, the Niemondians, or Watto as stereotypes, I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THEY WOULD BE VIEWED AS SUCH”. I think this would make me and grendel72 feel a little better.

109

Yes, pldennison, I don’y know any Yiddish speakers, I must be a bad, bad man. Why, I’ll bet I’m actually in the klan.

We are talking about stereotypes, not real people. I know plenty of black people, none of them talksuh likesuh Jar-Jar. Once again, I am not talking about reality.

If you don’t see it, fine. More power to you. To tell the truth, I wish I didn’t see it. I didn’t go into episode one looking for this. I have a feeling that most who don’t see the stereotypes aren’t old movie buffs like I am. As I’ve said it seems to me that the aliens were inspired by old movies and serials, the stereotypes in them often didn’t have a lot to do with reality.

Next you’re going to tel me that the alien chef who talks to Obi-Wan in episode two wasn’t based on Mel from Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore.

110

Yes, pldennison, I don’y know any Yiddish speakers, I must be a bad, bad man. Why, I’ll bet I’m actually in the klan.

We are talking about stereotypes, not real people. I know plenty of black people, none of them talksuh likesuh Jar-Jar. Once again, I am not talking about reality.

If you don’t see it, fine. More power to you. To tell the truth, I wish I didn’t see it. I didn’t go into episode one looking for this. I have a feeling that most who don’t see the stereotypes aren’t old movie buffs like I am. As I’ve said it seems to me that the aliens were inspired by old movies and serials, the stereotypes in them often didn’t have a lot to do with reality.

Next you’re going to tel me that the alien chef who talks to Obi-Wan in episode two wasn’t based on Mel from Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore.

BTW, tomndebb re

What do you think Eddie Griffin, to name just one, has based his career on. [Orlando Jones] “You don’t serve schlitz malt liquor! Y’all aint keepin’ it real!”[/Orlando Jones]

111

Oh Jesus!

If you want to see Asian stereotypes, I watched Breakfast at Tiffanys yesterday! (GREAT movie, btw, although I DID cringe). Mickey Rooney’s character is a stereotype, if ever there was one!

Good GOD, people! Get a fucking LIFE! Star Wars is racist, Star Wars is racist, oh boo hoo hoo…blah blah blah…
:mad:

112

You see what you want to see, grendel. In some cases that is the truth. I’ve never seen Shreck, so I can’t say whether a donkey—something not traditionally associated with blacks, or even ever associated with blacks AFAIK—is supposed to represent some comedy sidekick.

But comments like the ones I’ve read here have reminded me of militant feminists seeing phallic symbols everywhere they look, instead of seeing non-phallic symbols everywhere else and concluding just the opposite. A point in every direction is no point at all, Oblio. He’s got a point there!

As above, so below: there is no god but man.

113

Yes, pldennison, I don’y know any Yiddish speakers, I must be a bad, bad man. Why, I’ll bet I’m actually in the klan.

We are talking about stereotypes, not real people. I know plenty of black people, none of them talksuh likesuh Jar-Jar. Once again, I am not talking about reality.

If you don’t see it, fine. More power to you. To tell the truth, I wish I didn’t see it. I didn’t go into episode one looking for this. I have a feeling that most who don’t see the stereotypes aren’t old movie buffs like I am. As I’ve said it seems to me that the aliens were inspired by old movies and serials, the stereotypes in them often didn’t have a lot to do with reality.

Next you’re going to tel me that the alien chef who talks to Obi-Wan in episode two wasn’t based on Mel from Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore.

BTW, tomndebb re

What do you think Eddie Griffin, to name just one, has based his career on. [Orlando Jones] “You don’t serve schlitz malt liquor! Y’all aint keepin’ it real!”[/Orlando Jones]

114

Now, wait a minute, damnit. You said that Watto had “Yiddish speech patterns.” I countered that, in fact, I am related to people who are Jewish and actually speak Yiddish, and they don’t sound anything like Watto. Now you come back with this crap that I’m practically accusing you of being a bad person and in the Klan? Screw you, if you can’t talk about this like a civilized person. Screw you, for putting words – especially words like that – in my mouth. If you don’t actually know what “Yiddish speech patterns” sound like, that’s your problem, not mine. You shouldn’t have used the phrase if you didn’t know what it meant.

Tell you what – I’ll put up some links to recordings of a Yiddish speaker, and of Watto, and demonstrate concretely how they sound nothing alike. You think he sounds like Mr. Mushnick? Does that mean that director Frank Oz (short for “Oznowicz,” as it happens, and he’s as Jewish as the day is long) was using lazy Jewish stereotypes, too? Maybe he’s one of those self-loathing Jews. Funny you should mention that character, though–he’s played by Vincent Gardenia, an Italian, and I remarked that, if anything, Watto sounds Italian. Funny.

Then you pull the same stunt with Jar Jar – you claim he uses “stereotypical African-American speech patterns,” then turn around and say he doesn’t talk like any black people you know. This after you said he talks like Mushmouth. Well, does Mushmouth talk like any black people you know? If not, does that make Bill Cosby a racist? If it doesn’t, why doesn’t Ahmed Best get the same leeway?

We’ve established that he really doesn’t sound anything like an actual Rastafarian, and he doesn’t talk like Mushmouth, and he doesn’t sound like Amos or Andy or The Kingfish . . . could it be that maybe, just maybe, he sounds like a cartoon voice for a seven-foot talking amphibious alien? Nah, that’s obviously so far outside the bounds of reality as to boggle the mind, right?

monstro claimed that Ahmed Best was Jamaican, except, well he isn’t, so Lucas wasn’t trying to get a Jamaican voice . . . so I guess that road leads nowhere, too.

I can definitely understand, per monstro’s plea, how some people might see these things–it’s due to a combination of Hollywood’s historical less-than-stellar portrayal of nonwhite people with a “reality filter” that’s tuned to such a narrow band that it sees minstrel shows and the Yellow Peril in cartoon characters and guys in latex masks. But that doesn’t make it so. Just because you see it doesn’t mean it’s there.

115

I have to disagree with you, tomndebb. Many black actors–in one way or the other–have been forced to perpetuate a stereotype just to make a living. Even though he acts like one, Marlan Wayans isn’t a stupid guy. He knows that when he gets handed a script, more than likely it’s going to be a slapstick, stupid, goofy side-kick to some smart, good-lucking star of the show. But the guy’s gotta eat so he takes the part.

Ahmed Best’s version of a Gungan accent may not mirror Jamaican patois exactly. And I admit, I don’t know that many Jamaicans to make a good comparison. But it did conjure of a Caribbean accent to many people. Where we all suffering from some grand delusion? I guess that’s what most people on this thread would say. Maybe I should throw up my hands and go along.

And, as I noted earlier, I know of no associations of black inhabitants of the West Indies that makes them seem stupid. Maybe I have missed some.

116

Umm, don’t all answer at once, but George Takei is…

117

I don’t know how that last sentence got on my post. tomndebb said it, not me.

118

Oh, yeah, the donkey. Talk about puncturing your credibility. How the hell is the donkey in anyway black except that he happens to be voiced by Eddie Murphy? Who, incidentally, wasn’t even a side-kick in 48 Hours. He was a co-star. If I thought you were stretching in Phantom Menace, you’ve just turned into Reed Richards with Shrek.

119

. . . American. Born and raised in Los Angeles, California. Has a slight remnant of Japanese accent from his parents, and has equal traces of a SoCal accent.

But his last name is “Takei,” and he has slanty eyes and yellowish skin tone, so I bet the answer you were looking for is “Japanese,” huh? Physician, heal thyself.

120

I thought the best reason for seeing the Neimoidians as Asians was the fact that their army was faceless, yellow, valuable only in large numbers, good for nothing but massed suicidal charges, and incapable of independent judgement or action. :slight_smile:

I think the reason that this pointless debate has gone on for so long is that no one has mentioned the fact that the characters we’re discussing are caricatures of nothing in particular but simplistic traits that are widely applicable to any group for whom you carry stereotypes; witness the confusion over exactly which stereotype is being portrayed. That’s what happens with shallow, second string characters–they get obvious, cartoonish traits.

This whole silly thing reminds of the tempest in a teacup when some politician two years ago innocently used the word “niggardly”.