Yeah. That is exactly where this has come to at this point.
Broomstick: Still arguing with those voices in your head, are you? For the benefit of the studio audience, in this thread you wrote
This was well after you became aware of Moire and Mark’s statements.
I, being surprised that you didn’t consider Moire/Mark’s statements (along with Bradley’s multiple confessions about happily being an accessory to her husband’s crimes) wrote:
and now you write this gibberish about how you didn’t know about this a year ago as if that’s somehow relevant
I mean–are your voices telling you that I’m saying you should have known last year? Because really? I’m not. I’m saying that your post from a few hours ago about not considering all the testimony and circumstantial evidence along with the detailed confession of Braldly is more than proof enough for those of us who aren’t arguing with words that aren’t there. How you got from your post from a few hours back to me expecting you to know a year ago is, indeed, a mystery for the ages.
You…do get that there’s a difference between third-party testimony under oath and a first-person confession under oath, right? Because if you don’t believe MZB’s confession under oath that she knew about her husband’s rape activities, that she procured little kids for him and that she lied (both by omission and commission) to the parents about what happened, you’re on a whole 'nother plane from everyone else.
blink blink
You said
and then some bullshit about manipulation not being coercion which is a rather stomach churning statement on its own. I took from that that you feel that manipulating women into sex is iffy behavior, but not outright wrong behavior. And I find that troubling. If that’s not what you mean, write better.
I’m also not interested in spending a lot of time going over Alex Day with you because as it happens this thread is about Marion Zimmer Bradley and you and Broomstick seem to be looking for any avenues of changing the subject. As it stands, I consider what Alex Day admitted to doing abusive and immoral. You are more than free to look it up for yourself, but I have nothing to prove to you.
Oh, bullshit. Manipulation and coercion are not the same thing. A man who gets a woman into bed by,for example, studying her beahvior, noting that she goes all weak in the knees for war heroes, and then pretending to be same, is manipulating her but not coercing her. A man who gets a woman to have sex by threatening physical force, or threatening to fire her or evict her from her apartment, or to harm someone she loves, is coercing her but not manipulating her. These are not the same thing.
And I **haven’t **seen the reports. I’ve seen the wikipedia page on Alex Day, and a little bit on tumblr. I’ve seen nothing that says what Alex Day did beyond using the word “manipulate.” If you want to assert that Day did something coercive, then you have to specify what you mean.
Right back at you.
I’ll grant that this is off topic, and as I’d never heard of Day before Monday I have no real interest in what he did or didn’t do. So I’ll drop the subject and return to MZB. To (re) answer Fenris’ question from the OP, and some other matters brought up in the thread:
The revelations about MZB’s alleged rape of her daughter do not affect my desire to re-read her work, partly because there’s no way to find out the truth of the matter (she’s been dead for over a decade and cannot answer the charges), but mostly because I care little about the private lives of authors one way or the other. I care about the quality of their work, period. I enjoy MZB’s novels and short stories. In a perfect world I would know nothing about her personal life. In an imperfect world I compartmentalize. She might have been a pluperfect bitch and utter asshole; that doesn’t mean her stories weren’t enjoyable to me.
:rolleyes:
This is embarrassing even for you.
No, it was an error in editing the post. Happens all the time, to me and others; it’s the price of being human and of doing other things while on the Dope. Thanks for pointing it out so I could correct it.
Ah! I only now see the problem.
I was asking for the name of someone who is getting away with it, to serve as support for Broomstick’s claim that MZB is being “singled out.”
i.e., I didn’t mean that MZB is getting away with anything; I want evidence that others are being given a pass. That’s what “singled out” means. As if Asimov and Heinlein and Bradbury all did the same thing (of course they didn’t) but nobody has ever flamed them in a thread here.
So…I asked (and phrased it badly) if there is anyone that could be named who is just as bad, but not being condemned, to make the “singled out” charge meaningful.
I disagree. Broomstick is clearly arguing that age doesn’t matter, only how old a person looks. Raping a 3 year old is worse than raping a 10 year old because (direct quote)
In other words, if the victim looks older, it’s less bad than if the victim looks younger.
So…yeah, pretty much exactly what Emiliana’s saying, IMO
And this is pretty much the same approach used for O.J. Simpson and Oscar Pistorius. Nobody is talking about taking away their sports awards; we just remember the awards in a fuller context of these people’s lives.
The Naked Gun movies are still damn funny. But…they’re just a little harder to watch now.
Judging from the internet pile-on that’s happened, no.
Yes, but I’m sure that will be revoked. Give 'em time.
Dude, it’s been like a week since her daughter came forward. Expecting instant results will only give you crappy mashed potatoes. Again, give 'em time.
Well, um… Isn’t it? Some crimes really are worse than others. Both are absolutely intolerable, and there shouldn’t be much difference in criminal sentencing. But they aren’t exactly the same, either.
It isn’t so much that that opinion is wrong. It’s just that the opinion is utterly irrelevant. The Unabomber isn’t as bad as Tim McVeigh. But no one is going to be so insane as to say that the Unabomber is “okay” because of this. Both are still absolutely beyond any moral acceptability.
Her name is Moira Greyland (you could at least go to the effort of getting that right), and she’s told us why she didn’t speak up until recently (from the discussion threadabout the initial post):
I agree that it’s utterly irrelevant as to which is worse. There was simply no reason whatsoever to bring up the issue in this thread as though it could in any way be relevant. Why ponder whether or not the raped ten year old was mature for his age as if that somehow, in some universe, mattered?
“aesthetically pleasing”?!
brain asplodes
Before this thread she was just “that author whose books I’ve never liked” but it’s rapidly turning into “how the hell did she keep getting published”. Gah that’s icky.
Different times. The first time I ever heard of any of this a decade or more ago, my informant was someone who like one of the earlier posters used to occasionally hang out at Greyhaven ( the semi-communal home of Bradley, Bradley relatives and various associates and hangers-on ) in earlier years. She had stopped doing so some time earlier, but not because of any of the Breen stuff. She had always been of the understanding that he was kind of a mildly repugnant but doddering old harmless guy, who lusted wistfully but chastely.
I just recently saw MZB’s editor/former editor make a similar comment about what she had understood prior to his final conviction. This makes me think this was the standard party line and in the days before the internet, it would have been a lot easier to pass that story. Unless you were part of the tiny fanbase of cognoscenti who had been deeply immersed in the fanzine & con community when some of this shit went down, it was pretty unlikely you would have heard of all of this, let alone have access to stuff like court transcripts.
If she had lived this long I’m sure she’d be reaping the whirlwind right now, but pre-internet ( or very early internet ) the real extent of Breen’s crimes and MZB’s culpability ( passive or not ) was just the sort of “dirty laundry” that was easy to hide away. Let alone that MZB’s own apparent personal abuse of her children have only come to light at all this month.
There’s devil’s advocacy and then there’s utterly, disgusting lunacy. Jesus Christ.
Please, just stop with this. Fucking hell, I haven’t gone through anything specifically like that, and yet you’re giving me PSTD on those kids’ behalf. Again, Jesus Christ.
Dear God, yes it fucking does. I feel like I need a bath every time I read one of your new posts.
But she want be swayed! Not by our outrage, not by the facts, nothing matters but her pleasure in these books.
Well, that’s a good thing to know, isn’t it? Because otherwise, we’d be all harsh on child rape for no good reason, amirite?
And I doubt she gives a damn that you don’t give a damn about her disapproval, so the circle of life continues. Also, why would anyone at this point “want to discuss factual errors I may or may not have made, or provide new information” to you when you’ve ignored all of that already? People have been quoting back to you your very own words and it’s still not making a dent. I can’t say “Jesus Christ” enough.
After reading this thread, I get the feeling that they wouldn’t be the only people to behave that way.
I’ve very seldom ever expressed disappointment in someone here on the Dope, if at all, but this discussion has given me an exception. Not that anyone cares, but I’m repulsed and I’ve lost respect. How fucking gross.
Hey now, it’s an alleged rate. Totes unfounded accusations. That daughter probably had some sort of ax to grind. Circumstantial evidence, quoted testimony, corroborating evidence from the brother? They mean nothing! Nothing!
So you mind your phraseology… After all, it’s utterly likely that a woman would lie to smear her long dead mother Who there’s no “proof” against except her own sworn testimony (and we know that doesn’t count )… Because… Money?
Moved to The BBQ Pit from Cafe Society.
I would still rather hear “Rock N’ Roll Part II” played at the ballpark instead of “Sweet Caroline”.
For me the question is simple. I don’t touch shit because I don’t want shit on me.