This is one of the posts that made me question why she is due automatic respect and belief when she tells her story, but wants confirmation for Moira’s story. There are other posts but I am on my phone. In the linked thread she complains that some people just won’t believe her no matter what. Moira, on the other hand, had to have it confirmed by her brother.
I’m afraid I may regret dipping my toe back into this thread, but FWIW I agree with you, MaxTheVool. Broomstick has made posts in this thread that I disagreed with or that I think were at best extremely misguided, but I don’t see that she ever expressed any serious doubt that Marion Zimmer Bradley molested her daughter Moira. She was hesitant to conclude that Bradley was definitely guilty until she had more information, but after being directed to statements made my Moira’s brother Mark, she said she had changed her position. It sure looks to me like Broomstick is now convinced of Bradley’s guilt, and I don’t see that she ever claimed that Bradley was actually innocent.
I still don’t see it. As far as I can tell, and please, point me to a precise post that I’m missing if I’m wrong, Broomstick was saying that she thought the allegations against MZB were probably true, but that, crucially, they were not PROVEN, and it was important to remember the difference between alleged rapists and convicted rapists. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not one should randomly believe personal anecdotes that people post on the SDMB.
OK, I get it now, I had the wrong thread in mind, I was thinking of the one where the guy kept asking her to call him. Clearly different threads…
Does it matter if MZB was convicted? The woman is dead - really no risk of being unjustly jailed or anything like that. This has been a discussion of personal reactions to the accusations in relation to the body of work. Repeating that she has only been accused, and that hey, false accusations do happen, and maybe MZB is guilty, maybe, but yeah I need to see some some corroboration- it comes across as the same sort of thing she was objecting to in the other thread. I found it - odd.
Ho-lee shit. Now I’m starting to agree with MrDibble AND BigT. Is this the real life?
Yes, but to be fair, it’s not all that bad. I’ve learned that I can type using my tail. On the downside, my cat keeps trying to eat me.
Oh I’m more than happy to point out what people are seeing here…
[QUOTE=Broomstick]
Unlike Breen, MZB has never been dragged into court and convicted of child rape. The certainty of her guilt is not the same as the certainty over Breen.
Or do you want to move from a society where everyone gets a fair hearing to one where accusations are the same as convictions?
I have no reason to doubt Moire Greyland, but hers is one accusation made many years after the fact about a woman who is dead and can’t defend herself. While I think it is possible such a thing occurred given what we know of MZB it is still an accusation, not a conviction. I’d feel a lot more comfortable with some additional corroboration.
[/QUOTE]
Apparently, we’re supposed to give MZB the benefit of the doubt since she was never tried, despite past posts in which Broomstick was OUTRAGED that we don’t give victims the benefit of the doubt. Don’t get her wrong, she’s not doubting the victim’s story, we just don’t really know. Apparently, we need more than MZB’s own admission to establish guilt here.
[QUOTE=Broomstick]
There have been false accusations of child rape in the past. They aren’t particularly common but it does happen. Remember all that Satanic abuse that supposedly occurred, “proven” by “recovered” memories that later turned out to be false?
[/QUOTE]
Seriously, there are false accusations…we can’t take anyone’s word for granted, unless it’s some creeper who hit on Broomstick at her place of work…then HOW DARE WE question her version of events.
[QUOTE=Broomstick]
Sure, it’s possible MZB raped her own daughter. It’s also possible she was “just” an enabler for Breen. While the accusations about Breen have been proven in a court of law this recent statement by Moira is a new accusation. Quite possibly true, yes, but as I said it hasn’t been proven to the same extent the Breen accusations were.
I know little to nothing of Moira Greyland, or what sort of person she is, or how reliable she is. While I’m inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to her and believe her I wouldn’t feel comfortable repeating what she claims as a fact. An accusation, yes, but not an indisputable fact.
It would be nice to have more corroboration but, sorry, I don’t assume anyone is guilty merely because they’ve been accused of a crime. I’m sorry you don’t take the notion of “innocent until proven guilty” to heart.
[/QUOTE]
Again, overwhelming evidence (though not a literal jury’s decision) says this is true, including the perpetrator’s own admission. But no, let’s give her the benefit of the doubt, her daughter might be making the whole thing up!
[QUOTE=Broomstick]
I still read and enjoy Delany’s work, too, although I am also aware of his views that I find objectionable.
[/QUOTE]
As if having objectionable views is anywhere in the same ballpark as sexually abusing a child. I mean, seriously?
[QUOTE=Broomstick]
So… why should I treat anyone making accusations any differently than I was treated? Why is Moira Greylord to be believed and I am to be doubted?
[/QUOTE]
Wouldn’t you think that one would default to “maybe we should give victims more benefit of the doubt instead of less?”
So it’s not so much that she’s “defending” MZB…she even admits (finally) that it’s likely to be true, based on MZB’s own under-oath testimony. But somehow there’s this fine line drawn, as you mention, between being convicted and not being convicted, as if to say that if a person was not brought up on charges then the criminal act must not have existed. It’s a bunch of victim-doubt, equivocating bullshit.
A reasonable question, and I’d say it depends on the context… so can you point to a precise post from Broomstick that you found so objectionable?
Fair enough… but how is “odd” deserving of responses like “I feel like I need a bath every time I read one of your new posts.” and other similar responses?
My new theory is that the responses Broomstick is getting here are justified by huge numbers of crazy things she’s said in other threads that I haven’t read (many of which have been obliquely or directly referred to) because if you just read this thread alone, it’s like some kind of Orwellian grouphate.
Not in my case. I had no negative impression of her prior to this thread. Didn’t have much of any impression of her.
It has NOTHING to do with the children. I do not in any way think a tween or young teen is capable of consenting to sex, not legally and not morally.
I has to do with the ADULT.
While it is normal to be attracted to someone with adult secondary sexual characteristics even if those develop early, it is NOT normal to be be attracted to physically immature people. An adult attracted to toddlers has a far, far greater defect than an adult attracted to teens.
An adult with a normal sex drive who has raped someone (albeit someone too young to consent) might still serve their time in jail, get out, direct their desires towards consenting adults, and basically be allowed back into society with some hope of good behavior afterwards. We’d still have to watch them carefully but I think there is some small chance of these people not re-offending.
Someone attracted to toddlers is broken. There is no fix for something like that. There are no legal and moral people for them to desire. They can not be trusted to behave and will have to be closely watched and monitored if they are ever let out in order to protect their potential victims. They will be forever sexually frustrated. While some people can tolerate that, in their case it would be coerced and not voluntary.
In short, I believe the pedophile is far more likely to re-offend or to otherwise act out because they will never have a legal and moral outlet for their sexual desires. That makes the pedophile more dangerous and more of a threat to others.
No.
And… where have I ever said it was NOT rape? Please point to that direct quote. I have continually repeated that ALL rape is unacceptable and horrific.
I’m not going round and round with you again - you think it’s all equally bad. I think it’s all bad but some is worse. Well, we all agree it’s bad, why are you frothing at the mouth that I agree with you to that extent?
I WAS accused of making it all up… but hey, this is the Pit, it’s where we’re supposed to have a shitfit and it’s an anonymous message board. If people don’t believe my unsupported accusation that’s the breaks They don’t have any way to know I’m telling the truth unless I supply corroboration and at the end of the day there will always be people who don’t believe me. For a message board it doesn’t really matter but if I was going to go to court over a matter fucking yes I’d back up my statement with evidence. If I was going to accuse someone publicly on the internet of committing a crime I’d also provide corroboration.
Moira is accusing her mother of years of criminal activity. That’s a far more serious than someone simply being an asshole making a clumsy pass at a total stranger. Meanwhile, we have such phenomena as false memory syndrome which do crop up from time to time in people claiming sex abuse at very young ages. That doesn’t mean ALL such accusations are false, but that the memories from when one was three are not always reliable.
But, with additional corroboration from her brother Mark that supports Moira’s stories with accounts of being abused himself I have already conceded that the accusations are almost certainly true and should be treated as such - but hey, continue to ignore that I have changed my mind so you can continue to enjoy your outrage.
I’m a lousy speller and spell checker doesn’t work on names. Does it really have to be more sinister than that?
Well, that and I have a life outside the message board so I don’t respond immediately.
When I was young and naive I expected to be believed without proof but reality quickly taught me otherwise.
Thus, I treat others as I have been treated. If you accuse another human being of doing something criminal you need to back up your claim, or have someone to back you up.
Which has occurred with the Greylands and I conceded several pages ago that their claims are almost certainly true and should be treated as such. But, hey, paying attention to that would mean and end to your outrage outlet so carry on.
You know, Fenris, once I get enough info to conclude someone is guilty of a crime I really don’t feel a need to collect more and more and more. I mean, thanks for providing links and information but you seem to have amassed a large collection of it. I’m kind of wondering why you have such a “file” on these people, it seems a bit obsessive.
Although I was unaware of MZB’s aversion to oral sex or her apparent ignorance that molestation and rape involves more than the insertion of a penis into a body orifice. So, more weight on the side of the scales that says MZB is scum. Anything else you feel we should be aware of in regards to her depravity?
Seriously, has NO ONE seen where I have already conceded that MZB is scum and should have been arrested, convicted, and paid for her crimes? (Of course, that won’t ever happen now since she’s dead) Nowhere did I ever claim she was innocent, and certainly the two current threads have turned up an abundance of evidence she was not just an apologist and defender of a pedophile but also one herself.
So you approve of vigilante justice and lynch mobs, then? Because that’s where your viewpoint leads. We are supposed to be a society of laws, not a mob.
Incorrect.
While I don maintain there is a distinction between accusation and conviction,** I have multiple times said there there is sufficient evidence to conclude that MZB was also a molester.**
Yes, it does. You’re not allowed to take justice into your own hands.
Interesting example. OJ was acquitted in criminal court and convicted in civil court of two murders which puts the case into a grey zone. There are people to this day who believe his criminal acquittal proves his innocence and equally obviously there are people who feel differently.
He’s in jail for an entirely different crime, though.
Ah. So “disagreeing about details” is now “downplaying”? If I don’t agree 100% with everyone else I’m a bad person?
My, my, my - it is amazing how distorted people’s reading becomes on this.
- The “ten year old” was raped by Breen.
- MZB molested her daughter as a toddler based on information I was unaware of prior to this thread, and than no one outside of of Moira/Mark’s family/friends were aware of until this month
- if you think ephebophillia and pedophilla are equally bad that’s your prerogative
- MZB never was convicted, and never will be.
If you must paraphrase what I’ve said at least make the effort to do so correctly.
Yeah, I would like to have people take me at my word (don’t we all?), but in that much-linked thread I also said I wasn’t going to post personally identifying details, ask anyone else from back then to give up their privacy to post details, and the attempted rape having happened decades ago, I could not provide proof.
In this case, yes, Moira’s brother spoke up and multiple times I have stated that is sufficient corroboration but of course, it’s so much more fun to ignore what someone is actually saying.
In this case, yes. Delany is on record as supporting the North American Man-Boy Love Association, which is basically an organization of child molesters that has a primary objective of overturning age-of-consent laws to make molesting children legal. As I have yet to see any sort of retraction of those views then I have drawn the conclusion that Mr. Delany is OK with fucking children who are too young to give consent. So far as I know there is no evidence that he, himself, has ever done such a thing (he himself may only be sexually interested in adults, perhaps) but apparently he doesn’t view it as either criminal or immoral. Yes, I’d say that’s objectionable!
Feel free to Google on “Samuel R. Delany” and “NAMBLA” for a viewpoint that will make you want to vomit, but only if you have a strong stomach. It’s really too revolting for my taste. Yes, I view wanting to de-criminalize child molesting as beyond the pale and just another form of enabling molesters.
Actually, it was what her kids said that convinced me.
Man, you’re retarded. Protip: reading testimony is not collecting a “file”. Also, given your “protect MZB at all costs” garbage, I shudder to think how low you’d have stooped in your quasi-psychotic pro-Bradley & Breen defense.
Er…to finish that sentence,
Also, given your “protect MZB at all costs” garbage, I shudder to think how low you’d have stooped in your quasi-psychotic pro-Bradley & Breen defense…if I hadn’t posted those links you’re sneering at.