Now that Marion Z. Bradley's child raping has come out, does it change your desire to reread her?

[Trinopus]

@Myria_Lestrange

. . . So here you can see how can be impossible to separate author from art.
I felt there was something that made me uneasy reading this book and that’s what in the first place made me wonder about the author’s background, but after I knew everything turned for the worst. . . .

A long post, but one that rewards reading. Thank you.

I agree with you, as you phrase it carefully: “Can be impossible.” Not “Is,” but “Can be.”

Because…some authors are able to prevent their personal beliefs from leaking through into their work – but others aren’t. MZB let her feelings for child-adult sex leak through the boundary between author and work. But, in contrast, Orson Scott Card is pretty good at keeping his beliefs (against gays) from showing in his books.

So, for me, that isn’t the specific test… Because Card would pass it. I’m afraid I have to take a broader personal viewpoint, and boycott Card, because what he has said, entirely outside of the context of his books, was so outrageously and deliberately offensive that the odium contaminates everything he does.

(It’s a little like Rush Limbaugh doing ads for Snapple. I’ve never drunk Snapple since he did those ads. The product is permanently tainted in my mind.)

But here is the only real point I think I have: I acknowledge that this is at least partly irrational. I, myself, am smearing ideas across boundaries where they (perhaps) shouldn’t go. I’m practicing a kind of mental “magic of contagion.”

I’m one of those people who would not wear Hitler’s sweater. It’s not rational, but to me, the sweater would be “yucky” because Hitler used to wear it.

[MrDibble]

Oh, definitely agree there’s not a completely logical impetus to boycotting MZB or OSC’s work (although there are rational elements to it, as I’ve already said). It’s also an emotional reaction. And that’s OK!

Which is why people who try and imply hypocrisy in one not boycotting every offensive person, ever, just don’t get it.

[Lamia]

@MrDibble

Haven’t read it, and I’m not about to. Just Heritage of Hastur took on enough ooky overtones. Sounds like this book, or the raperific Avalon series, would definitely make me go :dubious: at those who said “Oh, but it doesn’t show in her actual work!”. Suuure it doesn’t.

I understand that you don’t want to read Bradley’s books, but this is a very ugly thing to say about the many people who did read and enjoy The Mists of Avalon or her other work.

[Scumpup]

@Lamia

I understand that you don’t want to read Bradley’s books, but this is a very ugly thing to say about the many people who did read and enjoy The Mists of Avalon or her other work.

Jiminy Cricket has spoken. Deal with it.

[MrDibble]

@Lamia

I understand that you don’t want to read Bradley’s books, but this is a very ugly thing to say about the many people who did read and enjoy The Mists of Avalon or her other work.

What ugly thing have I said about those who read or enjoy her work?

[Lamia]

@MrDibble

What ugly thing have I said about those who read or enjoy her work?

I just quoted you describing the Avalon series as “raperific” and saying that you didn’t believe anyone who claimed to have read Bradley’s books without realizing that the author was a child molester. You did not explain why you’re so certain that people are lying about their own perceptions of these books, but it sure looks to me like you’re accusing fans of Bradley’s work of at best enjoying her books because they contain rape and at worst of deliberately trying to cover up evidence of Bradley’s real-life crimes. Even if you just meant that fans of Bradley’s work were too stupid to see the obvious then that’s still pretty insulting.

[Czarcasm]

@Myria_Lestrange

I’d like to know if any of you has gone through this and would like to reach out and share its own experience?

Myria

Do you mean share here in this thread, or privately with you?

[kayaker]

@Czarcasm

Do you mean share here in this thread, or privately with you?

A room. Get one.

[MrDibble]

@Lamia

I just quoted you describing the Avalon series as “raperific”

Because it is.

and saying that you didn’t believe anyone who claimed to have read Bradley’s books without realizing that the author was a child molester.

That wasn’t what I said. Try re-reading without a stick up your ass. The point is about people denying what’s there now, not what people were meant to discover using insight alone. Big difference.

You did not explain why you’re so certain that people are lying about their own perceptions of these books, but it sure looks to me like you’re accusing fans of Bradley’s work of at best enjoying her books because they contain rape and at worst of deliberately trying to cover up evidence of Bradley’s real-life crimes.

Nope, neither of those.

Even if you just meant that fans of Bradley’s work were too stupid to see the obvious then that’s still pretty insulting.

You’ll agree that the subset of readers who wilfully deny that there’s anything suspect in the books is much smaller than the set of all readers who enjoy MZB, right? It’s those I’m insulting. But it’s the larger subset you thought I was insulting. And I’m just peachy with insulting the former.

[Lamia]

@MrDibble

Because it is.

That wasn’t what I said. Try re-reading without a stick up your ass. The point is about people denying what’s there now, not what people were meant to discover using insight alone. Big difference.

Nope, neither of those.

Look, I’m not trying to play “Gotcha!” If this post:

@MrDibble

Sounds like this book, or the raperific Avalon series, would definitely make me go :dubious: at those who said “Oh, but it doesn’t show in her actual work!”. Suuure it doesn’t.

was not supposed to mean “The Avalon series portrays rape as being terrific, and anyone who denies this is an idiot or a liar” then I truly do not understand what you were trying to say. I feel like I’ve been pretty clear about what I thought you meant and why I thought that, and you’re really not giving me much else to go on here.

FWIW Bradley didn’t even write most of the Avalon series; it was continued by Diana L. Paxson after Bradley’s death and (according to Wikipedia) Paxson was uncredited co-author on the two Avalon sequels that were written when Bradley was still alive. The Mists of Avalon is the only book in the series written by Bradley alone.

You’ll agree that the subset of readers who wilfully deny that there’s anything suspect in the books is much smaller than the set of all readers who enjoy MZB, right? It’s those I’m insulting. But it’s the larger subset you thought I was insulting. And I’m just peachy with insulting the former.

Why? I won’t pretend I’ve never insulted anyone for having questionable taste or being dumb, but given the seriousness of Marion Zimmer Bradley’s actual crimes I don’t understand why you’re making such a big deal about people who defend her fiction. I’ve only read a couple of her books myself so for all I know some of the others are very creepy indeed, but I wouldn’t rank writing creepy books as even a drop in the great big bucket of things that Bradley did wrong in her life.

[MrDibble]

@Lamia

Look, I’m not trying to play “Gotcha!” If this post:
was not supposed to mean “The Avalon series portrays rape as being terrific, and anyone who denies this is an idiot or a liar” then I truly do not understand what you were trying to say.

I think I see the fundamental problem - “raperific” doesn’t mean “portrays rape as terrific”, it just means “full of rape”

I feel like I’ve been pretty clear about what I thought you meant and why I thought that, and you’re really not giving me much else to go on here.

Other than my own posts, you mean?

FWIW Bradley didn’t even write most of the Avalon series

Mists already has that wonderful scene of a girl being raped as part of a religious ritual, and she definitely wrote that one.

Why? I won’t pretend I’ve never insulted anyone for having questionable taste or being dumb, but given the seriousness of Marion Zimmer Bradley’s actual crimes I don’t understand why you’re making such a big deal about people who defend her fiction.

Posting snarky comments is not “making such a big deal”

I’ve only read a couple of her books myself so for all I know some of the others are very creepy indeed, but I wouldn’t rank writing creepy books as even a drop in the great big bucket of things that Bradley did wrong in her life.

Yeah, yeah, everyone giving me shit for my stance has only ever read “a couple” of her books.

[Scumpup]

Except me. I largely agree with you and still find you an insufferably pompous, moralizing little blowhard.

[Seanette]

@Trinopus

(Some men, yes! A great many men are misogynist shits. Even in this day and age, I hear some men saying it was a mistake to give women the right to vote! To me, that kind of sexist troglodytism is startling, and not a little horrifying. But not all men! Some of us really aren’t “the enemy.” Bradley’s method was to treat all men as enemies…even the ones who are taking her to dinner as the guest of a convention.)

Which would make a rational person wonder why she was in a heterosexual marriage in the first place, if men were such complete evil?

[Seanette]

@Trinopus

The Naked Gun movies are still damn funny. But…they’re just a little harder to watch now.

I don’t know, I think watching Nordberg get pounded on is kind of gratifying.

[Lamia]

@MrDibble

I think I see the fundamental problem - “raperific” doesn’t mean “portrays rape as terrific”, it just means “full of rape”

I would disagree that The Mists of Avalon is full of rape, but it does contain rape so I suppose there’s room to debate how much is too much. I have read books by other authors that contained far more graphic and disturbing content than MoA, though.

Other than my own posts, you mean?

No, I meant your posts. If you can’t explain what point you were trying to make then I’m left with basically my original interpretation: you were accusing anyone who doesn’t share your opinion of the Avalon series of lying for sinister reasons of their own. That’s so nasty and unreasonable that I’d like to believe it’s not what you really meant – I do not normally think of you as a nasty and unreasonable poster – but it’s hard for me to give you the benefit of the doubt when you won’t explain yourself. Especially since you instead say things like this:

Yeah, yeah, everyone giving me shit for my stance has only ever read “a couple” of her books.

This is the Pit, so if you want to call me a liar (about how many books I’ve read by a particular author!) then you’re allowed to do so directly. In fact, I’d prefer a direct accusation to weaselly insinuations like this.

[MrDibble]

@Lamia

No, I meant your posts. If you can’t explain what point you were trying to make then I’m left with basically my original interpretation

You mean when I said things like “That wasn’t what I said.” and “Nope, neither of those [interpretations].” that wasn’t me saying your original interpretation was wrong? And I didn’t elaborate on what I meant in that same post?

As to how many MZB books you’ve read, you may only have read two, but you certainly seem to know enough about who ghost-wrote what. Your implication is: I’ve only read two, I’m not a huge fan or otherwise invested here. Your detailed knowledge of the identity of her ghost writers says otherwise. You may not have a read a lot of her books, but the ones you have read sure do seem to matter to you.

[QUOTE=Scumpup]
I largely agree with you and still find you an insufferably pompous, moralizing little blowhard.
[/QUOTE]
And I should give a shit about what you think of me because…? And I say “Bullshit!” to you “largely agreeing” with me - you may think MZB should be thrown down a flight of stairs (I don’t) but all you’ve done here is call those on my side of the debate “offenderati” on a witch-hunt. You do not “largely agree with” me, and you’re a dick about it. Fuck right off with pretending to be on my side, troll.

[MrDibble]

@Seanette

Which would make a rational person wonder why she was in a heterosexual marriage in the first place, if men were such complete evil?

Breen was special. The whole Bay Area SF community of the time certainly seemed to think he was not as other men, and outside all rules made for such lesser mortals. Plus he wasn’t into Bradley and didn’t visit his …dirty urges … on her, so there’s that.

[Lamia]

@MrDibble

You mean when I said things like “That wasn’t what I said.” and “Nope, neither of those [interpretations].” that wasn’t me saying your original interpretation was wrong? And I didn’t elaborate on what I meant in that same post?

I have acknowledged that you have said my interpretation of your post was wrong, but I do not see that you have bothered to explain what you did mean. You still haven’t done so in the post I’m responding to now. I’m not going to play “hot or cold” here. You’ve had plenty of opportunity to clear up my misunderstanding, and your continuing refusal to do so leads me to believe that there actually was no misunderstanding. I think I had it right the first time, especially since you’re sounding more like a conspiracy theorist with every post.

As to how many MZB books you’ve read, you may only have read two, but you certainly seem to know enough about who ghost-wrote what.

I’m a librarian, Senator McCarthy. It is literally my job to know this kind of thing. While I already knew that Paxson continued the Avalon series after Bradley’s death I didn’t know that she was the uncredited co-author on the first two Avalon sequels until just the other day, though. This is information I gained through the esoteric method of looking up the Avalon series on Wikipedia.

Your implication is: I’ve only read two, I’m not a huge fan or otherwise invested here. Your detailed knowledge of the identity of her ghost writers says otherwise. You may not have a read a lot of her books, but the ones you have read sure do seem to matter to you.

I said how many of Bradley’s books I’ve read and described my feelings about The Mists of Avalon in my very first post in this thread, which I wrote before you had even started posting in this thread yourself:

@Lamia

I read (and loved) The Mists of Avalon for the first time at a fairly young age and reread it a number of times over the years, but I’m pretty sure my most recent reread was in anticipation of the miniseries so that would have been 2001. As a teenager I read two or three other books that Bradley had written or co-authored and I didn’t really enjoy any of them. I couldn’t even finish the first Mists sequel, The Forest House. I don’t specifically remember what I disliked about it, only that I thought it was tedious and stupid.

Aside from Mists of Avalon and about half of The Forest House, I have also read Black Trillium, which Bradley co-authored with Julian May and Andre Norton. (Uh oh, there’s that suspicious knowledge again!) So that’s 2.5 books, which I feel might reasonably be described as “a couple”. The third book I was thinking of was a Darkover anthology – I’m pretty sure it was Snows of Darkover – and that was edited but not authored by Bradley. I have no reason to lie about any of this, and it is certainly not a secret that The Mists of Avalon did mean a lot to me. I’ve posted about the book in other threads before.

Have you read The Mists of Avalon? I ask because you certainly haven’t been shy about expressing your opinions about the book’s content and its fans.

[MrDibble]

@Lamia

I have acknowledged that you have said my interpretation of your post was wrong, but I do not see that you have bothered to explain what you did mean.

So you missed where I said

The point is about people denying what’s there now, not what people were meant to discover using insight alone

Great eyesight, there.

You still haven’t done so in the post I’m responding to now. I’m not going to play “hot or cold” here. You’ve had plenty of opportunity to clear up my misunderstanding, and your continuing refusal to do so leads me to believe that there actually was no misunderstanding. I think I had it right the first time, especially since you’re sounding more like a conspiracy theorist with every post.

Right - you thought my post was insinuating that everyone who enjoys her books gets off on rape, and I’m the one doing the misunderstanding…

I’m a librarian, Senator McCarthy. It is literally my job to know this kind of thing. While I already knew that Paxson continued the Avalon series after Bradley’s death I didn’t know that she was the uncredited co-author on the first two Avalon sequels until just the other day, though.

So, is it your job to know, or did you have to look it up when you had an internet argument? Which is it?

This is information I gained through the esoteric method of looking up the Avalon series on Wikipedia.

…but you’re not invested in them. Gotcha. Oh, wait, what’s this?..

I said how many of Bradley’s books I’ve read and described my feelings about The Mists of Avalon in my very first post in this thread[…] it is certainly not a secret that The Mists of Avalon did mean a lot to me.

No, it certainly is not. So you’ve read a couple, but you only weally, twully luurve one of them.

The one that contains the positively-portrayed rape of a female (who’s described more than once as a “little girl”) by a “sinewy old hunter” in some religious orgy - but it’s totes OK, you guys, because … Goddess!

Have you read The Mists of Avalon?

Yep. Not Forest House or the later stuff, though. Those, I just gasp researched on the Internet. Um, I found the full text of the one Myria mentioned, as well, Google search being what it is, but I wasn’t going to read the damn thing. I just have the one brain and bleach is corrosive.

I ask because you certainly haven’t been shy about expressing your opinions about the book’s content and its fans.

Again with the thinking I’m attacking everyone who’s ever read an MZB. Not doing that. I’ve read around 3 times more MZB than you have - I’d have called myself a Darkover fan 10 years ago. I’m only ripping into the ones in active, defensive denial about the content of her work.

And unlike you, I’m not going to draw a distinction between the stuff MZB actually wrote vs the stuff with her name on it. It’s the whole legacy that should be brought down, not the assessment of her literary worth. I could give a shit what Paxon or any of her stable of ghosts wrote. It has her name on, it’s tainted by her stink.

[Scumpup]

@MrDibble

And I should give a shit about what you think of me because…? And I say “Bullshit!” to you “largely agreeing” with me - you may think MZB should be thrown down a flight of stairs (I don’t) but all you’ve done here is call those on my side of the debate “offenderati” on a witch-hunt. You do not “largely agree with” me, and you’re a dick about it. Fuck right off with pretending to be on my side, troll.

I rest my case, blowhard.