Nuclear meltdown! Holy Godzilla NOOOO!!!

This is an example of the kind of magical thinking some alternative energy proponents engage in. If only we’d spent more money, we wouldn’t have these problems, because we’d have cheap, clean, renewable energy!

Except that you can’t identify the engineering path to this magical energy, you can’t describe where the money should have been spent that would have yielded the result you assume we could have had. It’s all fantasy.

You also ignore the fact that billions WERE spent. Many billions. How many more were required to attain this certainty of green energy? Do you have a ballpark figure?

The fact is, some engineering problems are really, really hard. There are physical limits that are hard or impossible to get around. Fossil fuels have extremely high energy density. We just haven’t figured out how to do any better. Nuclear power has come closest in terms of cost-benefit, but even there we have serious difficulties.

So you don’t get to wave your arms and say, “If you’d listened to us, this wouldn’t have happened!” In fact, if Japan had listened to you it’s entirely possible that their economic growth would have have been a percentage point or two lower for the last forty years due to higher cost of energy and/or lack of availability of power for industry, and compounded over 40 year might mean the standard of living in Japan could be half or a quarter of what it is today. With a commensurate reduction in ability to be able to handle a disaster like this. If Japan had been hit with this tsunami but had an economy closer to Haiti’s than to the U.S., the loss of life could have been a hundred times greater.

Nuclear fusion got the kind of money you’re talking about, straight from the government. Nothing has come of it. Companies like GE, Siemens, and various others have dumped billions of dollars into alternative energy research. Private industry spends several billion dollars per year on alternative energy research and development.

Look, everyone knows that an honest-to-god cheap replacement for fossil fuel is the holy grail. Large amounts of money go into finding that energy. We just haven’t figured out how to do it. The people choosing to invest money or not have looked at the potential - they plan out a decade or two in advance. They spent money when it looks like it might have a positive return, and they don’t if it doesn’t. For you to state that more investment would have solved the problem is simply an ignorant statement. You don’t know. You’re taking a stab in the dark with other people’s money.

Germany has been pumping huge subsidies into the solar power industry. I drove through there last year and was amazed at how many solar panels I saw on houses and small businesses. But it hasn’t really helped. Talking to Germans with the panels, it seems like the benefits were over-sold, and the subsidies used to encourage them has caused a lot of bad decisions to be made.

Spain’s experience in building a subsidized solar industry was not good. They pumped huge money into their solar companies, then they went broke, the companies went under and flooded the market with inventory, hurting other solar firms. In the end, not much has changed.

It’s entirely possible, and even likely, that if we’d have spent the billions more on alternative energy that you say would have prevented all this, we’d simply be billions of dollars poorer.

You can’t have ‘safety first’ when your first duty is to your stock-holders.

Yes you can, and I have seen it in action. Shareholders don’t like major accidents that depress the stock price. I’m not saying that every company is perfect, but there are many who put forth a great effort for safety.

Fight my ignorance, was this a for-profit nuke plant traded on the Nikkei?

Hell, Sam, you may be right. Certainly it is the technological challenge of our age, worthy of a Tesla or an Einstein, how do we think ourselves out of this mess we thought ourselves into?

But if we can’t, we’re most likely fucked. And not in the sense of an uncomfortable loss of living standard, but in the sense of dead. No doubt, we have wasted billions in our mad scramble to make up for lost time. No doubt, we will waste billions more, and there is no guarantee of success.

But if we are prudent, hard-headed and realistic, we can save all that money. And count it. As our world turns brown and lifeless, we can congratulate ourselves on not squandering that money on foolish schemes. But maybe you’re right, that’s undeniable, we don’t know. Its a gamble, to be sure, when we have so much to invest in. Futile military adventures, advertising ten varieties of loud, shiny crap. Good thing we didn’t waste that perfectly good money on pie in the sky schemes. We might not have cheese flavored dog food and really big, fast cars! Tragedy.

And if we, by some miracle, succeed? You’ll be first in line to take the credit. Entrepreneurship! you’ll say. A vigorous, competitive capitalism, that’s what saved the day! And we moonbats? We’ll be fine with that, we’ll just dandle our grandchildren on our knees. And then we’ll go dream up something else silly and unrealistic for you to sneer at.

Magical thinking works great in politics, romance, various types of criminal activity and Internet message boards. Engineering, not so much.

Thanks for taking the time to explain what I hinted at earlier, Sam. :smiley:

Live chat with an Oregon State University Nuclear Engineering professor about the “meltdown” threat.
Right now at the Seattle Times website.

I don’t know why this is so hard. The politicians can create legislation making it so, or do due diligence when they approve a new plant and require upgrading of existing plants to comply with new code. All sorts of shit that could have been done to account for the end times before it happens. Just because it may require people to pay multiple times the amount for electricity shouldn’t matter, should it?

Don’t get me wrong - I also believe we need to find alternative, renewable energy sources. I’m a big fan of wind and solar in the right areas, and still believe we are going to have to build more nuclear power sources. I have hope that we’ll figure out how to make wind and solar work for us at some point.

This is alarmist. We aren’t going to be dead, and we’re not going to destroy civilization. We could shift to alternative energy and nuclear if we had to do it today - it would just cost a hell of a lot of money. It would slow down economic growth, and it would change lifestyles. Maybe that will have to happen at some point.

But let’s keep it in perspective:

Coal costs the U.S about $100 per megawatt/hour. Natural gas ranges from about $80 to $140 per MW/hr. Nuclear is about $120, as is hydro.

Currently, solar PV is about $400/MW/hr, and solar thermal is about $250. Wind ranges from $150 to $200. However, wind is very location-sensitive, so if you tried to scale it up to be a significant part of the energy mix you’d be up in the $200 range or more.

So we could change to alternative energy now if we had to - it’s not a matter of physics, but a matter of cost. Moving to renewable energy today would increase our overall cost of energy by a factor of two to four. That won’t destroy civilization.

The U.S. spends somewhere between $700 billion to $1 trillion a year on fossil fuel energy in total. If you quadruple the cost of energy, you’re basically going to have to extract somewhere between 2.8 and 4 trillion dollars extra from the economy each year. That’s why we can’t just go wholesale, willy nilly for solar panels, and shouldn’t trying. It would ruin us economically.

But if we had to, we could transition to a combination of wind, solar thermal, and nuclear and replace half of that energy for maybe 1.5X the cost, which would add more like an additional 250 billion dollars per year. That would slow economic growth, but it wouldn’t end civilization. If we had to replace all fossil fuel with energy that costs twice as much, we’d add maybe an extra trillion dollars in costs to a 20 trillion dollar economy. That would eliminate economic growth and result in a period of stagnation while we re-engineered society to be more energy efficient.

The good news is that if that kind of economic pressure starts building, the market will start making that transition all on its own - no government intervention required. In fact, it’s already doing that - U.S. factories spend large quantities of money already improving their energy efficiency.

New fire reported, reactor #4

Some people actually want a major radiological disaster to occur. As if it would somehow exonerate their long held enviro-pussy beliefs against nuclear power. :rolleyes:

Please spare us the blow-by-blow media hype circus. :rolleyes:

Possibly. Or, you’re just mad 'cause you can’t scream “impossible! Cite! Prove it!” anymore.

He could still say “Inconceivable!”, if he’s fool enough to match wits with a Cecilian, when death is on the line.

I see what you did there!

Hmm. I admit it’s not attractive, but it doesn’t really strike me as dangerous.

Whooshed 1, 'luci!

And in the category of, “No shit, Sherlock,” we have this genius* -

What! Hey, Japan - quit allowing your reactors to overheat! Oh, wait, I think they’re already trying to do that.

*Not an article really worth reading - I was aiming for something a little more science-based and sensationalism-light, but this quote made my eyes roll.

It wasn’t remotely a whoosh, but thanks for noticing.

(Does that make it a meta-whoosh?)

Thanks for identifying yourself as the type of pustule who uses the ‘opponents of nuclear energy/the Iraq occupation/new offshore oil drilling want a meltdown/our soldiers to die/a nightmare oil spill.’

Even gonzomax and FXMastermind, as vocal as they’ve been about nuclear power and this ongoing disaster would really rather people not be endangered.

You twit.

In 1972 the AEC safety official was decrying the pressure system used in the GE reactors. He felt they were unacceptable safety risks. He said “What are the advantages of the pressure suspension ,apart from cost”. Yes they could have and should have been made safer.