Ignorance fought! 
Hey, as I repeatedly say, I’m not a U.S. lawyer, and all I know about the NY law in issue is what I read in the papers. However, that piece linked upthread highlighted how rare an absolute dissolution is, rather than disgorgement of profits.
I’m as curious as you to see what the judge does, but there generally is a principle that the remedy has to be proportionate to the illegal conduct.
I do find it interesting that the AG NY did not ask for the de-listing order, according to that article, and that the judge came up with it on his own.
Well, I’m not BLAMING you or holding you responsible. Your points (and they seem valid) made me reconsider how much of my desire is being driven by the heartfelt desire to punish Trump vs what that the law may entail. And I’m in the group that would rather see a crook get an unbeatable, if smaller penalty than a speculative greater penalty at greater risk, AS LONG AS said smaller penalty is still within the loose realms that the law allows for justice.
Plus, let’s be honest, the thought of Trump Org and it’s crime family top constantly having to answer to a nanny on their efforts to cheat absolutely FILLS me with schadenfreude, as well as the near certain conviction they’d still fuck it up and end right back in court.
It is.
Jan 25
The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) - #5359 by LSLGuy
Jan 17
About trump's immunity fantasy - #11 by Stranger_On_A_Train
etc
etc
I’m a bit surprised that there is an issue with “no victims” after the devastation that hit the US and the world after the 2008 housing crises. Misleading real estate values, risky loans given to questionable debtors, and high debt levels all caused massive problems for the world’s economy.
If he overstated the value in order to get bigger loans and then understated the value for tax purposes, how is that something other than literal tax fraud? Is it “because everyone else does it” ? And does that make it ok?
It’s a little bit like the tobacco companies claim in the past that although yes, their products caused cancer, you could not pin a specific cancer in a specific person to the specific tobacco product. So therefore there were no victims.
In this case, however, I thought it was pinned on the lenders losing money and more favorable insurance rates than he would have gotten with proper valuations. Meaning both of those folks definitely had losses due to his fraud.
Won’t even go into speculative loss if he had defaulted.
At these bits of money - 1/10 of a percent is still ALOT of money.
And it may be that the judge could conclude that the fraud committed by Trump Org is so broad that even without individual victims, such fraud does broad harm to honest business practices that it should warrant delisting the companies, for the reasons advanced by Riemann Hamlet and simster. We have to wait and see what he does.
One peek at what could inform Engoron’s thinking on this – the non-monetary damages:
In a footnote in a 94-page summary document filed earlier this month, Letitia James suggested a compromise decision for Engoron: Appoint an independent monitor to oversee Trump’s operations for five years, after which the court could decide whether to revoke his business certificates and possibly put him out of business.
I think this has a pretty high likelihood of being the eventual outcome.
Plus the money hit.
Former Trump CFO, Allen Weisselberg, [wait for it] may have lied during the NYS Civil Fraud trial:
I know, right??
Future Trump tweet: The independent monitor, from 123 sunny st., brooklyn, is being very unfair.
That wouldn’t make much sense, given that the current monitor is continuing to find fraud while he’s being monitored - so that’s not much of a penalty or a deterrent.
We covered this perjury issue upthread, starting with this post on October 13 by @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness :
And in this very thread about two months ago, posted by yours truly.
(If this is considered a thread hijack, I apologize, but given the number of COBOL posts in this thread, I think/hope it’s OK.)
The value of those billions of lines of COBOL lie in the captured knowledge they represent. Companies have failed because some bright young buck decided it was critical to move to a more “modern” language, and tried to rewrite mission-critical logic. Not only is this always more expensive than predicted, but it’s all but guaranteed to miss things–that bit of special-case handling that Fred put in on a Thursday afternoon in 1982. Fred is not part of the conversion because he retired and then DIED, so there’s no hope of understanding it until it’s failed. Yes, decent comments/documentation would solve this. Be serious, that never exists.
The smarter companies move the easy stuff and leave the core in COBOL, whether on the mainframe or rehosted under Linux. The dumber ones let the CxO have his (always “his”, it seems) way, and by the time the size of the mistake is clear, he’s moved on anyway. Makes me sad.
Moderating:
It really is a hijack, not started by you, but let’s stop it now. To all: Take the COBOL discussion elsewhere. Thanks.
I had been hoping to see a verdict in this case today, to go along with the Appeals Court decision, making it a very, very bad day for Trump. It doesn’t look like it will be coming any time soon though. Judge Engoron has issued an order requiring the parties to inform the Court what they know about the perjury plea deal in the works by Trump CFO Allen Weisselberg, for perjury he committed in the fraud case. I think the verdict is likely to be huge in any event, but a perjury conviction for a “star witness” is likely to make it even worse.
This is probably a good thing worth waiting for.
That, along with the recent revelation about Trump’s $48m “loan”, is not likely to result in a better outcome for Trump by any means.