NY AG Letitia James drops the (civil) hammer {On Trump & Family} [9/21/2022]

[Gyrate]

@Northern_Piper

Their business model depends on fraud. How successful can they be if they are required to abandon the fraud model, and compete fairly, within the law?

In the UK in 2014, payday lenders and debt management companies were made subject to a new, more rigorous regulation regime. About 15-20% of the sector promptly closed or went under, while others (including the market leader) more slowly went under upon discovering that their business model was way too heavily reliant on screwing their customers.

I don’t think Trump Org will go immediately under (unless things are worse than even we know) but in three years’ time it’s probably going to be hurting a lot.

Also: I look forward to the company under Jones calling in that $48m “loan” to Trump. And then Trump and his company suing each other.

@Horatius

“I learned it from you, dad!” Gen Xers will appreciate that.

I do.

[gnoitall]

@Horatius

You’re one of those people who nitpicks the Vader Quote

He has altered the quote. Pray he doesn’t alter it any further.

[Riemann]

@Gyrate

In the UK in 2014, payday lenders and debt management companies were made subject to a new, more rigorous regulation regime. About 15-20% of the sector promptly closed or went under, while others (including the market leader) more slowly went under upon discovering that their business model was way too heavily reliant on screwing their customers.

Payday lending ceasing to exist is probably a healthy thing. But if there is no way for a payday lender to make money on “reasonable” terms enforced by a regulator, you can equally well say that the problem is that the borrowers are on average just a terrible risk. Payday loans have been regulated out of existence because the borrowers are on average so bad at paying loans back that that it’s just “no loans for you”.

[Odesio]

@Riemann

Even if Trump Org had the skills to run a business profitably under normal fair terms, the public record of the fraud judgment is now going to make financing more expensive for them than their competitors.

That makes sense. Part of why I don’t believe the Trump organization can do business without fraud is because they haven’t really been doing any business since they have a former federal judge appointed as a monitor. They’ve been collecting revenue, but there haven’t been any new business ventures. i.e. They’re just sitting on their assets. Assuming for a moment the Trump organization figured out some way to get funds, they’re still going to have a judge not only monitoring their business but now they have to get permission from her to conduct business.

[CoolHandCox]

re: Judgment

Procrustus had it right above, but I’ll add to it because I think you can tie it all back to a settlement after a Judgment. It’s lengthy, but that’s kind of the point - Judgments can be tedious to enforce.

Feb 16: Judge renders his 92 page verdict**/opinion/order. It says Trump liable, pay $355million, interest, can’t operate in NY, etc. This verdict has to be condensed down and made into a Judgment. If Trump doesn’t pay, the Judgment is the document that would be enforced - not the Feb 16 verdict. As of today, there is no Judgment.

Most often, he’ll have the lawyers do the work for him and make the lawyers send proposed judgments which the Judge can use, not use, modify, reject, etc. Ultimately, the official Judgement is from the Judge - he signs it and it comes from the Court.

Feb 20: AG sends over a proposed Judgment. Judge agrees it captures everything correctly in his ruling and is inclined to use it. See here:

Engoron, in an email exchange with Robert, indicated there was “no need for a motion or conference on this” because the judgment the attorney general proposed mirrored the terms of his order.

Feb 21: Trump sends a letter to Judge saying they want to be able to submit their own proposed Judgment. Says there are two specific problems with the AGs proposed Judgment. From link:

The judge, however, invited Trump’s side to provide specific disagreements with the proposed document. Trump’s lawyers cited two items they said were incorrect and requested more time to evaluate the document and propose any other changes due to what they considered inaccuracies. It was not clear when Engoron would respond.

The Judgment will soon be finalized, the clock will start ticking, and Trump will have X days to pay or appeal.

Can you negotiate a final Judgment = Yes. It’s common in civil trials. Once the Judgment is finalized, you can think of it as an invoice on steroids. If you don’t appeal and don’t pay, nothing happens unless the winning side does something, they have to enforce the Judgment - the Court doesn’t care if it’s enforced or not. In this scenario, there is a whole other post-Judgment “trial” involved to determine which assets can be seized to satisfy the Judgment - meaning, you have to go back to Court. Sometimes it’s easier to just negotiate something.

[Riemann]

@Odesio

They’ve been collecting revenue, but there haven’t been any new business ventures. i.e. They’re just sitting on their assets.

But they may not even be able to tread water, because the problem with financing rates being much higher will still bite when they have to refinance any existing assets. I don’t know how much public information there is on their debt maturity timetable, it’s probably out there.

[Horatius]

@Odesio

They’ve been collecting revenue, but there haven’t been any new business ventures. i.e. They’re just sitting on their assets.

And really, how is that a bad thing? Anyone else holding title to that much real estate, and just renting it out like a normal person, would be rich in perpetuity. That’s the whole point of investing in real estate! It’s the old cliché about land being the one thing they’re not making more of.

If Trump is so over extended that just renting out his existing properties is a recipe for disaster, then he should be welcoming someone taking that burden off of him.

[Odesio]

@Riemann

But they may not even be able to tread water, because the problem with financing rates being much higher will still bite when they have to refinance any existing assets. I don’t know how much public information there is on their debt maturity timetable, it’s probably out there.

And the New York business real estate market may be hit very, very hard once business don’t renew their leases because so many employees are working from home. Unless something changes soon, New York, and Manhattan in particular, are going to face some very difficult days.

@Horatius

And really, how is that a bad thing? Anyone else holding title to that much real estate, and just renting it out like a normal person, would be rich in perpetuity. That’s the whole point of investing in real estate! It’s the old cliché about land being the one thing they’re not making more of.

I’m hardly a real estate expert. But we’re talking about a guy who couldn’t run a profitable casino, a man who has more failures as a business man than success. I wouldn’t trust him to get my newspaper for me let alone run a business.

[Horatius]

@Odesio

But we’re talking about a guy who couldn’t run a profitable casino, a man who has more failures as a business man than success.

Yeah, I know. I keep being astounded at the fact that his incompetence can still astound me, I guess.

[hajario]

Engoron was like “yeah, no” on the pause

Actually he said, “You have failed to explain, much less justify, any basis for a stay,” he wrote, addressing Trump attorney Clifford Robert. “I am confident that the Appellate Division will protect your appellate rights.”

Judge in Trump fraud case denies request to pause $354 million judgment

[Euphonious_Polemic]

(MAGAts) “Perhaps it will convince him if we threaten the judge more?”

[Euphonious_Polemic]

Sounds like Engoron is going to sign the judgement today. That gives Trump 30 days from today to either stick the money in an escrow account, or find some entity willing to guarantee this money (they will want to have security in the form of assets that are not tied up and hard to liquidate). He must do this in order to file an appeal.

He has two alternatives to coming up with the cash:

Don’t appeal, in which case the state of NY can begin the process of seizing assets (which will likely take some time, given the rat’s nest of multilayered LLC’s that make up the Trump business)
Or
Declare personal Bankruptcy.

[Procrustus]

@Euphonious_Polemic

That gives Trump 30 days from today to either stick the money in an escrow account, or find some entity willing to guarantee this money (they will want to have security in the form of assets that are not tied up and hard to liquidate). He must do this in order to file an appeal.

Also true for the two Trump boys and the $4M they each owe.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@Procrustus

Also true for the two Trump boys and the $4M they each owe…

Do they have to mount separate appeals, or is the appeal process all wrapped up into one?

[Riemann]

@Euphonious_Polemic

Declare personal Bankruptcy.

The judgment lists at least these entities in the biggest parts of the judgment:

Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump
Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC…are jointly and severally liable

So what would happen with bankruptcy?

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@Riemann

jointly and severally liable

< Oprah >
“You get a bankruptcy! And YOU get a bankruptcy! AND YOU!
EVERYONE GETS A BANKRUPTCY!” < /Oprah >

(Crowd cheers)

[dougrb]

@Riemann

So what would happen with bankruptcy?

Add some more to the list.

The Details About the 6 Donald Trump Corporate Bankruptcies

[Whack-a-Mole]

@hajario

“I am confident that the Appellate Division will protect your appellate rights.”

He might not get there:

Donald Trump accused of not having the cash to pay $400M bond

[Atamasama]

This bit from that article from Alina Habba cracked me up.

Trump lawyer Alina Habba said: "Even if we choose to appeal this—which we will—we have to post the bond, which is the full amount and some, and we will be prepared to do that.

"What they’re trying to do between this case between my last case is put [Trump] out of business. It’s not going to work, number one. Number two, what they’re doing is a scare tactic.

“Unfortunately, they picked the wrong guy to pick on, in my opinion, because he’s strong, he’s resilient and he happens to have a lot of cash.”

The language she used here reminds me so much of a Cecily Strong character she played back on SNL, which appeared on some Weekend Update segments. “The Girl You Wish You Hadn’t Started A Conversation With At A Party”.

Weekend Update: Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation with on Christmas - SNL

I cannot read that quote and not hear that voice. (I know Habba doesn’t actually sound like that, but still.)

How long will it be before we know for sure if he’s going to be able to pay? Sometime in the next 30 days, right?

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Atamasama

How long will it be before we know for sure if he’s going to be able to pay? Sometime in the next 30 days, right?

I think it is 30 days (and the clock started a week ago or so I think).