Obama: DHS will issue work visas to young undocumented immigrants

[Magiver]

@mister_nyx

Anyone who says something like that better hope they’re speaking to a crowd of people dumb enough to believe that a smaller, less robust economy benefits them.

Perhaps it will work if the entire University of Colorado graduating class is hoping to become repo men.

We’re currently in a situation of high unemployment. They’ll have time to mull it over while living in their parent’s basement.

[BrainGlutton]

@Rysdad

Or, he could address the graduating class of the University of Colorado and say something like, “Congratulations graduates. Good luck getting a job now that there are tens of thousands of formerly ineligible illegal aliens that are now qualified to take the positions that you just spent four years studying and paying for.”

@Magiver

We’re currently in a situation of high unemployment. They’ll have time to mull it over while living in their parent’s basement.

Once again:

Immigrants take jobs and opportunity away from Americans

• The largest wave of immigration to the U.S. since the early 1900s coincided with the lowest national unemployment rate and fastest economic growth. Immigrant entrepreneurs create jobs for U.S. and foreign workers, and foreign-born students allow many U.S. graduate programs to keep their doors open. While there has been no comprehensive study done of immigrant-owned businesses, we have countless examples: in Silicon Valley, companies begun by Chinese and Indian immigrants generated more than $19.5 billion in sales and nearly 73,000 jobs in 2000.[5]
• Illegal immigrants, as well as legal immigrants with little job skills or language skills often take the work seen by most Americans as “beneath them.” Janitorial services, crop pickers, garbage collectors need workers, and they do not find them from high-school-educated, English-speaking citizens. As a demonstration of this fact, in Georgia, a 2011 crackdown on illegal immigrants caused many to be deported and more to flee the state. This caused a shortage of labor on the state’s farms, indicating that illegal immigrants in that state do not compete very much with Americans for jobs.

Now, let’s have no more “Theytukrjobz!” arguments in this thread, shall we?

[Farmer_Jane]

@Dr.Drake

Magellan01, you (and others) are talking about fairness and morality. Think of it this way: if a child’s parents committed a murder together when the kid was 7 or 8, how much should the child have to suffer for it when he’s an adult?

Another thought: I am the child of one illegal immigrant (and one US citizen who, though married, did not bother to sponsor my mother for legal residency until she had been in the US nearly 30 years). She was deported once when I was a child, and re-entered illegally. Because she was white, educated, securely employed, and a native English speaker, this was all a minor inconvenience for her, while to a poorly educated native Spanish speaker, it would be disastrous. How is THAT fair? If she had been kept out, I would have had to leave the country, too, or else grow up without a mother. How is THAT fair?

And, of course, as a gay man I’m not allowed to sponsor my spouse for immigration at all, which means all that public money spent on MY education, K through PhD, is now benefitting Canada and not the USA at all. From other threads I suspect that’s a net gain in your book.

The point is, the system is so byzantine and backlogged and biased that there is no way to use terms like “fair” or “moral” in description of the status quo. Iggy’s point is quite reasonable, but there are a thousand other aspects to the prioritization process in place that he could (and should) object to just as much.

I actually clapped when I read this post. Thank you.

@Rysdad

Or, he could address the graduating class of the University of Colorado and say something like, “Congratulations graduates. Good luck getting a job now that there are tens of thousands of formerly ineligible illegal aliens that are now qualified to take the positions that you just spent four years studying and paying for.”

:dubious:

Given the makeup of Boulder, he’d probably get a standing ovation.

Also, the Board of Regents is considering an adjusted tuition rate for immigrants. The problem is, only a very tiny few will be able to take advantage of it because they don’t have $60k laying around. Metro State, however, just said they are going to have an adjusted tuition rate that’s above in-state but below out-of-state. It’s about $8k a year.

This week has been very exciting for my students.

[Magiver]

@BrainGlutton

Now, let’s have no more “Theytukrjobz!” arguments in this thread, shall we?

And what jobs do you think the college kids specifically targeted by Obama are going to be competing with?

And no, we WILL have arguments regarding jobs during high unemployment. I’ve worked landscaping jobs that you seem to think Americans won’t work along with low level factory jobs along with a host of people just like me who were displaced by the economy.

[Rysdad]

Interestingly enough, Janet Napolitano herself said the following while addressing the Senate Judiciary Committee in 2011:

“Deferred action—a form of prosecutorial discretion—is not a form of relief from removal based on specific, established criteria or exercised on a categorical basis for large classes of aliens. Instead, it is a product of the inherent authority of ICE to decide which cases merit the commitment of our agency’s resources. ICE officers, special agents, and attorneys consider every case individually to decide whether, based on the totality of the circumstances, a favorable exercise of prosecutorial discretion is appropriate.”

Evidently, President Obama disagrees with his own Secretary of Homeland Security.

[Magiver]

@BrainGlutton

Assuming you’re serious, I’d say it’s because national-origins quotas have a very ugly history.

not as ugly as one country sucking the oxygen out of immigration for everybody else.

[Antigen]

@Eva_Luna

Just file it within the 90 days before your conditional green card expires, and then it doesn’t really matter how long USCIS takes to adjudicate it. When you get the receipt notice, you will see that it extends the validity of your green card an additional year while the petition to remove the conditions on your green card is being processed. If, for some bizarre reason, USCIS takes longer than a year to process it (which is extremely rare), you can go down to your local office and get additional one-year extension stamps if needed. No sweat.

Thanks, Eva, I feel a little better now!

@Rysdad

Or, he could address the graduating class of the University of Colorado and say something like, “Congratulations graduates. Good luck getting a job now that there are tens of thousands of formerly ineligible illegal aliens that are now qualified to take the positions that you just spent four years studying and paying for.”

What about all the legal immigrants taking jobs away from Americans? Would you like me to leave your country?

[Rysdad]

@BrainGlutton

Now, let’s have no more “Theytukrjobz!” arguments in this thread, shall we?

Balderdash.

Remember the age group that the reprieve applies to? Are you telling me that every single illegal alien does only roofing, food service, maintenance and landscaping? None of them went on to higher learning? None of them will complete with US citizens for jobs that they weren’t eligible for previously?

Best as I can tell, 9.3% of second generations of illegal aliens (who really are US citizens) earn an advanced degree. Therefore, with the president’s latest decree, it could reasonably be expected that approximately the same number of current illegal aliens (of the type we’re discussing) would now be also attaining degrees and competing for jobs that were previously available only to citizens.

What does 9.3% of the “newly eligible formerly illegal” populace amount to?

[Rysdad]

@Antigen

What about all the legal immigrants taking jobs away from Americans? Would you like me to leave your country?

You’re legal. That’s different. Welcome to the US.

[Rysdad]

I will say this, though…I would allow expedited application for citizenship for those that served honorably in the armed forces or Coast Guard. If they choose not to apply for citizenship, then they could certainly have a presumptive approval for two-year renewable visas.

[Rysdad]

@Rysdad

Interestingly enough, Janet Napolitano herself said the following while addressing the Senate Judiciary Committee in 2011:

“Deferred action—a form of prosecutorial discretion—is not a form of relief from removal based on specific, established criteria or exercised on a categorical basis for large classes of aliens. Instead, it is a product of the inherent authority of ICE to decide which cases merit the commitment of our agency’s resources. ICE officers, special agents, and attorneys consider every case individually to decide whether, based on the totality of the circumstances, a favorable exercise of prosecutorial discretion is appropriate.”

Evidently, President Obama disagrees with his own Secretary of Homeland Security.

I stand corrected. This wasn’t the result of an executive order. This was a memo from Napolitano. The Secretary of Homeland Security disagrees with herself!

[magellan01]

@BrainGlutton

From RationalWiki (non-copyrighted material):

I’m convinced! While each and every one of those items has been debated and shown there to be valid counter arguments that either show them to be wrong or at least show that there is more to the story, since you cut and paste them ALL AT ONCE(!) I’m a believer!!! Wow, good job. But you forgot your famous signature line: “Discuss”.

I see your lazy heap of dung and see you double the amount of :roll eyes:s.

[magellan01]

@Dr.Drake

It’s beside the point because you were talking about people’s decision to come to the US illegally, and the subject under discussion is about children who had that decision made for them by others.

I looked for a cite that one country is in fact dominating and overloading the system, because that seemed unlikely. I found that according to Homeland Security, somewhere in the 50–60% range of so-called “unauthorized immigrants” are from Mexico (data from 2000–2008), more than ten times the amount for any other country in that period. I was surprised by the numbers, and it makes me think a better solution to the issue would take that into account somehow.

I couldn’t agree more. A huge honking fence with m ore troops and drones and whatever else we can use to help keep our borders secure.

[Farmer_Jane]

@Rysdad

I will say this, though…I would allow expedited application for citizenship for those that served honorably in the armed forces or Coast Guard. If they choose not to apply for citizenship, then they could certainly have a presumptive approval for two-year renewable visas.

Do you support giving kids with no papers (usually very expired visas) a shot at the military? A lot of mine would do it if they could, but they can’t without green cards.

However, if you are a citizen of Micronesia, the U.S. has an agreement where you can serve in our military and apply for citizenship. No joke.

[mister_nyx]

If only non-defense discretionary spending hadn’t remained flat in real dollar terms for the last decade, we might have enough workers to both handle existing claims from those seeking citizenship and also handle applications for this process.

Gosh, it’s funny to see the same group of people both insisting on not funding government sufficiently to do its job and then arguing that it’s a problem that the government’s resources are too limited to handle an executive order rationally aligning the priorities of ICE with our goals. Thank goodness we still have billions and billions of dollars to flush down the toilet on the F-35. That’s the kind of spending we can agree supersedes any concern about spending U.S. citizens’ money wisely.

[mister_nyx]

@magellan01

I couldn’t agree more. A huge honking fence with m ore troops and drones and whatever else we can use to help keep our borders secure.

Yes, of course. Any amount of money and resources is absolutely fine, as long as it keeps them out. There’s no limit to what we should spend on that.

[Crazyhorse]

Almost half of the so called ‘illegal immigrants’ in the US did not break the law when they entered the US originally, and are not breaking any criminal law by their continued presence without up to date documentation.

It is a false premise, repeated over and over again in immigration debates. (in this case even being accepted and put forward by some supporting the policy in question) It isn’t a matter of “Their parents are ‘illegal’ but the kids don’t deserve to pay for that” - almost half of them did not cross the border illegally but simply overstayed a visa, or otherwise entered legally and blended into society without renewing their papers or taking the steps to apply for permanent residency or citizenship. Immigration paperwork is a clerical issue, an administrative task, not a criminal investigation. A person being undocumented in no way by itself indicates, to any reasonable person, that they committed any crime when they entered the US originally.

For the same reason, any argument beginning “Because ‘illegals’ broke the law to get here… [insert rest of argument here]” is flawed from the start and unfairly categorizes millions of people as criminals who aren’t.

Everyone in the US is entitled to due process, however they arrived. “Illegals” as a group can’t be deported because each individual case has to be reviewed for its own specific circumstances. In many of these cases nothing more than a visit to an immigration office to renew forms and pay fees would be required to resolve the case.

It is a given that attempting to deport every undocumented immigrant would be impossible both legally, financially and logistically. There aren’t too many politicians who would ever support such an idiotic notion on either side of the aisle. So the question becomes which ones really need to be deported and it makes sense to focus available resources on criminals rather than work and/or education seekers…

[magellan01]

@Dr.Drake

Magellan01, you (and others) are talking about fairness and morality. Think of it this way: if a child’s parents committed a murder together when the kid was 7 or 8, how much should the child have to suffer for it when he’s an adult?

Another thought: I am the child of one illegal immigrant (and one US citizen who, though married, did not bother to sponsor my mother for legal residency until she had been in the US nearly 30 years). She was deported once when I was a child, and re-entered illegally. Because she was white, educated, securely employed, and a native English speaker, this was all a minor inconvenience for her, while to a poorly educated native Spanish speaker, it would be disastrous. How is THAT fair? If she had been kept out, I would have had to leave the country, too, or else grow up without a mother. How is THAT fair?

And, of course, as a gay man I’m not allowed to sponsor my spouse for immigration at all, which means all that public money spent on MY education, K through PhD, is now benefitting Canada and not the USA at all. From other threads I suspect that’s a net gain in your book.

The point is, the system is so byzantine and backlogged and biased that there is no way to use terms like “fair” or “moral” in description of the status quo. Iggy’s point is quite reasonable, but there are a thousand other aspects to the prioritization process in place that he could (and should) object to just as much.

The reality of it sucks, but children benefit or are hurt by the decisions their parents make. Unless you want every child born to immediately become a ward of the state and have it do what it thins best, we’re stuck with that sometimes unpleasant reality. Your parents decide to cook meth in the kitchen and blow it up and now you’re all homeless, that sucks. Your poor 15 year-old mother decides to have unprotected sex and gets pregnant without being married or a father to take care of his responsibilities and drops out of 10th grade, odds are you’re life is going to suck. Your father breaks a few lefts for a loan shark and gets caught and winds up in prison for 20 years due to past convictions, that suck, too. The point is that children are the responsibility of their parents. If I decide that I want to improve my lot in life—and my children’s—by robbing the Bellagio, that likely to bad a very bad decision for me and my kids. When someone comes here illegally, they KNOW what they’re doing is illegal. Same if they overstay their Visa. They KNOWINGLY put themselves and their families at risk. Why should that be someone else’s problem. I really don’t get that.

Also, as I’ve mentioned, the more you make accommodations for illegals and/or their families, the more you encourage more illegal immigration. And encouraging something that is 1) against the law and 2) bad for the country is just plain dumb.

[magellan01]

@BrainGlutton

It is not strawmanning at all, to attribute to immigration-opponents such positions as “Illegal immigrants cause crime” or “Illegal immigrants are the source of many communicable diseases” or “Immigrants take jobs and opportunity away from Americans.” I encounter bullshit like that all the time on the Intertubes, sometimes on this Board.

Well how about you actually contribute to THOSE debates when their taking place, little Miss Linda Richmond? How the fuck is it helpful to a debate to inject 20 fucking topics at once? Other than to YOU, because all you had to do was cut and paste it.

Great job, Linda. :rolleyes:

[Magiver]

@Rysdad

I will say this, though…I would allow expedited application for citizenship for those that served honorably in the armed forces or Coast Guard. If they choose not to apply for citizenship, then they could certainly have a presumptive approval for two-year renewable visas.

I agree and meant to say that earlier. Yes, you put your life on the line for my country you get bonus points.