magellan01, in what way has she been kicked off the island? She’s saying her constituents support her and that she plans to remain right where she is, in spite of several calls for her to resign.
[QUOTE=Simplicio]
Read the thread, then post.
[/QUOTE]
I skimmed it. Was there something specific you think I should focus on?
-XT
Bush-as-Chimp makes fun of his comical appearance and the monkeyshines he pulled while he was destroying the country.
Obama-as-Chimp is because he’s Black, and racists often equate Blacks with apes.
Not really the same thing, and so not a double standard.
Four different posts already addressed the issue you brought up.
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.]
Bush-as-Chimp makes fun of his comical appearance and the monkeyshines he pulled while he was destroying the country.
Obama-as-Chimp is because he’s Black, and racists often equate Blacks with apes.
Not really the same thing, and so not a double standard.
[/QUOTE]
That seems to be in the eye of the beholder to me. It’s funny because you didn’t like Bush. It’s not funny because of past racial stereotypes about black people when it’s done to Obama. I get that. But it still seems like a bit of a double standard to me, since it’s all about who’s ox is being gored. I didn’t find the ones about Bush when they were posted on this board or shown on the internet particularly funny, I don’t find these about Obama particularly funny now…I think it’s all a way to demonize your opponents through cheap shots that appeals to the the lowest common denominators of either base. YMMV.
-XT
[QUOTE=Simplicio]
Four different posts already addressed the issue you brought up.
[/QUOTE]
Yes…I noticed that. But they didn’t provide a handy Google link. 
-XT
I was focusing on the the people above her calling for her resignation. I didn’t read the whole thing in detail. But she should be thrown off the island immediately.
You have really lost it.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
You have really lost it.
[/QUOTE]
Always a possibility. Sadly, you never had it to lose.
-XT
You are revealing too much about yourself. Step away from the computer and take a nap. Perhaps when you come back , you can see what you are doing.
I think everything she said after the reveal, as quoted in the OP, is a lie.
I do not believe that an American adult, able to survive day to day without assistance, could fail to have known, in advance, that an interpretation of racist meaning and intent was inevitable. I am much more prepared, given certain backgrounds, to give people a pass for saying “nigger,” than this.
It has nothing to do with ownership of the ox. The racist meaning and intent would be exactly as unmistakable, and exactly as despicable, directed against any black person.
All comparisons of black people to apes or monkeys are racist, always. And no comparison of a non-black person to an ape or monkey is fully comparable, ever. I’m sorry, it’s fucked up, it’s not “fair,” but this is the reality of the American context.
[QUOTE=spark240]
If you really “got” it, you wouldn’t think it a double standard. It has nothing to do with ownership of the ox. The racist meaning and intent would be exactly as unmistakable, and exactly as despicable, directed against any black person.
[/QUOTE]
And had all this happened before the Bush presidency I’d say you are right. But that well has been so completely poisoned and so much hate and venom were released during those 10 years that it’s going to be hard for me to see the moral high ground here. I DO get that showing Obama as a chimp is a racial slur. And for all I know that’s exactly what the fuckheads who commissioned this had in mind. But under all that is the question…why was it ok to do this continuously about Bush for years on end, but it’s not ok to do it against Obama? Because Bush is white anything goes? Because Obama is black he needs to be treated with a different standard of political attack and satire? Why?
So, if the president was a Hispanic it would be ok to portray him as a monkey? What about if we have an Asian president in the future? Would it be ok then? How about a Polynesian? What about if the president was a Jew? It seems to me that you’d be in the same boat with any of those, since in the past racial slurs have been used against all of them, and photo-shopping them as a chimp would be highly offensive to any of those groups. So…does that then make them off limits? It’s only ok if we do it to white people? It’s only funny if we do it to white people? Only white people have a thick enough skin to take the heat in that sort of satire?
Horseshit. It’s almost like you guys are saying that because Obama is black he should be immune from this sort of thing. I say that he wanted that top spot…he has to play with the big boys. If Hillary had gotten elected, she’d have to take her lumps too from the folks who would want to make fun of the fact that she is a woman. And if a Hispanic ever gets elected, he or she will have to take their lumps too…or an Asian, or a Jew, or a whatever.
That said, I have no problem with tearing the folks who did this a new one. I think they WILL get torn a new one over this in fact, and I hope they choke on it. But the level of hypocrisy here is sickening to me.
-XT
Anyone remember Obama Bucks? A 2008 Southern California mistep by a Republican Women’s Group.
The woman who did it said
.
Jesus F*ing Christ!! Do they read this from a script handed out at the meetings?
It’s just a hardcore, base component of the Republican Party, the religious, pious, racist branch. It’s probably only a 20% or so group, but they are bottom feeders.
I am fine with criticism and mockery directed against politicians of all affiliations and skin colors. Obama is not and should not be immune from criticism, even vicious or obscene ridicule. The same was true for Bush, and that’s as it should have been.
All I’m saying is that, in this country, the specific image of a black person as an ape or monkey is always, unavoidably, going to be seen as racist. And I believe everybody knows this. Therefore the use of such an image is always rightfully understood to be racist in intent.
Do you think that your ability to criticize this President (or any other significant black figure) is impaired by avoiding this particular style of image?
This raises an interesting issue. If I wanted to lampoon/insult, Huckabee, and did a “Huckabucks” showing him as a hillbilly with heaps of chicken-fried steak and squirrel and pork rinds and overalls over a ginormous belly, is that okay? If you were to do Guilliani, and showed meatballs and and a mafia outfit and a crucifix on his hat, is that within bounds. I think they are, dumb as they might be. And that brings us to the Obamabucks, someone trying to lampoon/insult him choose foods that, stereotypically, black people like. Is that any worse than the others?
I’m with Chris Rock (I think it was him) on this. He made the point that if I want to insult you or make fun of you, I’m going to use all the stuff you have, caricature it, and slap you with it. If you’re fat, that’ll be in there, if you have big teeth, that’ll be in there, etc.
Anyway, I think it things have gotten two PC. You wanna do a stupid Obamabucks, knock yourself out. I think it reveals you to have limited mental resources, but necessarily a racist.
[QUOTE=spark240]
Do you think that your ability to criticize this President (or any other significant black figure) is impaired by avoiding this particular style of image?
[/QUOTE]
I think that such images and the use of such tactics are universally repugnant, regardless of the color of the skin of the President in question. I found them repugnant when the liberals where flooding the internet with this shit when Bush was President, and I find it repugnant when ignorant Tea Baggers are doing the same stupid shit now against Obama.
-XT
With Bush, it was WHITE PEOPLE making fun of a WHITE GUY. Fuck. Why am I even bothering, you are just so fucking full of shit.
You shouldn’t bother then, Steve. Ok…so, it would be ok for a black guy to put up an image of Obama photo-shopped as a chimp then? What about a Hispanic guy? Would it be ok for me to put up an image of Obama as a chimp, or would that be out as well? Am I only allowed to put up such an image if the president is Hispanic?
Since you aren’t going to bother and all, I guess you won’t answer, but how do you know that every image of Bush as Chimp was done by white people? Do you guys have some sort of recognition signals that allow you to know each others work? Something that doesn’t work on us minority types? Is this the same signal that allows you guys to get bank loans and the like?
-XT
Really? I don’t really have a problem with images of Obama as a clown, or a rat or whatever other unflattering thing people want to use. I certainly don’t find it repugnant People using crazy charactatures of political figures to express their opposition to them is a pretty longstanding tradition, you can see several of them a week in political cartoons. And for the same reason I don’t have a problem with people depicting Bush as a chimp.
But theres a subset of those charactatures that have a strong history of transmitting a message thats not just unflattering, but racist. And so whether its “fair” or not, using those on black people will be pretty universally regarded as not just mocking a black politician, but as mocking their race. Communication depends on context, especially satire or humor, and when people draw Obama as a chimp, they’re communicating something different then when they draw Bush as a chimp, or Obama as a clown.
It’s not that the standards need to be different. In my opinion, it’s that the standards need to be the same.
If i really felt that “chimp” was being aimed at Obama only due to something specific to him as an individual and a politician, i might be willing to draw the sort of equivalence that you’re suggesting here. But it’s not. It’s because he’s black. As such, the insult is only partly about Obama himself, and is much more about his race. In case it’s not clear, my problem with this woman is not because she compared Obama to a chimp; it’s because she compared a black man to a chimp.
I have no problem with caricaturing Obama. For example, like Bush, Obama has rather prominent ears, and i think that personal physical traits like this are fair game for cartoons and other pieces of criticism. Similarly, portraying him as a communist apparatchik or something similar that is connected to his own policies (or, at least, ideas about his policies) is completely unproblematic to me.
As i said earlier, in a world where people of African descent had not constantly and systematically been compared to simians over the course of centuries, and been subjected to unequal treatment (including slavery) during that time, with connections often drawn between black “primitiveness” and their supposed “place” in the world, things might be different. In such a world, it might make sense to say that comparing Obama to a chimp and comparing Bush to a chimp constitute a single standard. But that’s not the world we live in.
As i said earlier, i’m not advocating that such racialized language be banned or held up to legal sanctions. The court of public opinion and the free marketplace of ideas are, i think, sufficient for dealing with this stuff. But that doesn’t mean i’m not going to call it like i see it, taking into account the historical factors that make it quite different to compare a black man with a chimp than it is to compare a white man with a chimp.