Obama says cops acted stupidly in Gates incident

[Rubystreak]

@Starving_Artist

Rubystreak, I have to leave.

Oh, you ALWAYS have to leave.

But I will say again that if Gates had been reasonable and behaved like 99% of the rest of the population would have in similar circumstances, the problem of his arrest would never have occurred.

I see that as incidental, because Gates’ behavior, while unwise, was not illegal.

I would also point out that you don’t know whether the officer lied or was simply mistaken. When things are flying hot and heavy and lots of stuff is going on, impressions get made that are not necessarily correct. For instance it’s not unusual for ten victims of a robbery or participants in an automobile accident to give ten different descriptions or versions of what actually happened.

The question of whether or not Gates provided a MA drivers license really does affect my and others’ view of the subsequent events. I think the officer should be able to remember correctly if he was given an ID with an address on it or not. That’s part of his job. If he did receive a MA license, he should have left immediately, as his job was done. He and Gates are at odds on this point, and it’s hard to know who to believe. If Gates is correct and the officer is not, then he lied in his police report, and the lie happens to be in his favor to make Gates look bad and justify his further interactions with Gates. I don’t feel comfortable with that, do you?

Thus the fact that there are inconsistencies between the police report and the tapes means very little to me. In the final analysis if Gates hadn’t behaved like a belligerent asshole virtually from the moment he opened his door, this whole brouhaha would never have occurred, thus the overwhelming responsibility for the fact that it did happen lies with him.

The person with greater power in the situation bears the greater responsibility.

[begbert2]

@Starving_Artist

Rubystreak, I have to leave. But I will say again that if Gates had been reasonable and behaved like 99% of the rest of the population would have in similar circumstances, the problem of his arrest would never have occurred.

I’m not convinced that Gates was the slightest bit unreasonable or belligerent. The cop’s report on that claims that he was shouting, which he can apparently prove was medically impossible - this calls the entire accusation of belligerence into serious question. There is an independent statement that he was behaving oddly - which is consistent with his own account where he was perceiving the police as predatory adversaries. But I don’t know of an independent account that substantiates the belief that he ever did anything unreasonable.

[tumbleddown]

Gates was handcuffed in front not out of courtesy but because he is handicapped and pointed out – since he walks with a cane, and has had a progressively worsening limp since he was a young man – that if his hands were behind him, he would not be able to walk, he wouldn’t have any balance.

[SteveG1]

I did A LITTLE bit of reading on this.

Gates broke into his own house. That is not a crime (yet). A neighbor called the police. The police asked for Gates’ ID. Somewhere along the line, he showed them the ID. That should have been the end of it. Apparently there is no law against arguing with the police in that town (yet). It is not defined there as being disorderly or as a disturbance of the peace. It was a tired old man with a bum leg, in HIS house. The police could have, should have just looked at the ID and then left.

I’m still confused about something. Why didn’t the police arrest him IN the house, if there had been some god awful breach of manners that requires an arrest? Why did they “lure” him out on the porch?

Sorry, but I smell something and it smells like bullshit.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

As I understand it (and I’m open to correction from our legal compatriots), they’d have needed a warrant to arrest him inside the house. Once he stepped outside he was “in public” and could be arrested for “disturbing the peace” without said warrant.

[SteveG1]

@EddyTeddyFreddy

As I understand it (and I’m open to correction from our legal compatriots), they’d have needed a warrant to arrest him inside the house. Once he stepped outside he was “in public” and could be arrested for “disturbing the peace” without said warrant.

That sounds REAL flaky. It sounds like they were “fishing” for a way to bust him for something (anything) and that was the best they could come up with.

[elucidator]

I’m guessing here, but I’m thinking they didn’t really intend to arrest him in any meaningful way, the arrest was more disciplinary than criminal. They were thinking to punish him appropriately for dissing a cop. Take him down, slam him up for a little while, turn him loose and he’ll most likely shut up and take it. If he goes to see a lawyer, he’ll most likely be told it wouldn’t be worth it, he’d spend thousands of dollars and likely lose, because juries believe cops.

He was released after ten hours? Was there a bail hearing? Or did they find out that he had, ah, friends in high places?

Conjecture, there are other scenarios that fit the facts. But this is where I’d put my bet.

[gonzomax]

Justin Barrett, Boston Police Officer, Suspended For Calling Gates A "Jungle Monkey" In E-mail | HuffPost Latest News A Boston cop is in trouble for calling Gates a jungle monkey. How can such a thing be. the police are never racist and they just defend themselves against evil dirtbags. Such a thing just can not be.

[SteveG1]

@elucidator

I’m guessing here, but I’m thinking they didn’t really intend to arrest him in any meaningful way, the arrest was more disciplinary than criminal. They were thinking to punish him appropriately for dissing a cop. Take him down, slam him up for a little while, turn him loose and he’ll most likely shut up and take it. If he goes to see a lawyer, he’ll most likely be told it wouldn’t be worth it, he’d spend thousands of dollars and likely lose, because juries believe cops.

He was released after ten hours? Was there a bail hearing? Or did they find out that he had, ah, friends in high places?

Conjecture, there are other scenarios that fit the facts. But this is where I’d put my bet.

Maybe the little lightbulb finally came on, and they realized their story wouldn’t fly. After all, this is a Harvard professor, who is buddy buddy with the prez.

[SteveG1]

@gonzomax

Justin Barrett, Boston Police Officer, Suspended For Calling Gates A "Jungle Monkey" In E-mail | HuffPost Latest News A Boston cop is in trouble for calling Gates a jungle monkey. How can such a thing be. the police are never racist and they just defend themselves against evil dirtbags. Such a thing just can not be.

Such a thing could NEVER happen here! :eek:

[Hippy_Hollow]

@you_with_the_face

After reading this thread and the other in IMHO, it saddens to me to see that racial bias is still so pernicious that the credibility of a world-famous Harvard personage whose acumen, professionalism, and personal character have been found to be in good standing, who is both well-regarded in his community and a respected scholar, is somehow trumped by that of a cop who no one knows anything about except for maybe a few, grasping details that only have been released as a defense tactic. And to see that Gates is still being hotly derided and belittled and villified, even when evidence comes out that the cop might be a little loose with facts…well, yeah, I’m going choose Racial Bias for $2000, Alex. That’s the most parsimonious explanation.

Forget about the supposed racism associated with investigating a man for breaking into his own home and then arresting him for expressing displeasure and even (gasp) demanding to have the cop’s name and badge number in a testy manner. Although I question whether an elderly white professor would have been treated the same, it’s possible for me to entertain some room for doubt (although very little) that racism led to this stupid outcome (amen Obama, amen).

What I’m nigh certain of is that if a white Harvard professor of Gate’s celebrity had been arrested for essentially being a crotchedy old man, absent would be the pages upon pages of strenuous defenses on behalf of some Joe Schmoe beat cop. Of all things, that’s what sticks out to me the most in Gates-gate: the inordinate defense of a complete stranger.

I think some of yall are so beseiged with bias that you’ve completely and totally lost your mortal minds.

uh… what she said.

People have vilified Gates, completely ignoring a career in the public eye… if the guy was a crackpot that screamed “RACISM!” every time something didn’t go well, he wouldn’t be as well-regarded as he is. He’s not Ward Churchill. When I was at Harvard, Gates publicly spoke well of Larry Summers, at a time where Summers had a very public spat with Cornel West, probably the most prominent Black scholar there next to Gates - and a friend of Gates’ as well, and Summers had invoked the ire of virtually every community of color as well as women. Gates is not seen as a guy who’ll get out front of an issue and rally the students; that’s more how Allen Counter and Cornel West (when he was there) roll. That’s not a dis, but just how he is.

Harvard’s Du Bois Center is not a “radical” assortment of crackpot sixties holdovers. It is a respected center for research on the African diaspora, and a nutjob couldn’t run it. Area studies departments are already under suspicion by many in the academy, and wise, calm leadership is how the departments get even grudging respect. But perhaps that’s inside baseball and neither here nor there.

I think it’s a nasty cocktail of racial bias, envy, and disdain for intellectual achievement (shit, it would have to be at Harvard, right, where everyone eats caviar, spits at common folk, and has handservants at their beck and call). Of course Gates played the “do you know who I am” card, in his tweed sportcoat, reading the New Yorker as a Crowley, the guy who tried to save BLACK Reggie Lewis’ life and is a trainer on racial profiling (and therefore himself exempt from any possible prejudicial behavior, right?) is only trying to do his job.

Sounds ridiculous, right? But that’s exactly what the thread reads like.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Well, whaddaya know? The Boston Police Patrolmen’s Association wants nothing to do with their “jungle monkey” slamming (soon to be ex) member:

Boston police put two-year officer Justin Barrett on administrative leave pending a termination hearing. Barrett, 36, did not immediately return calls for comment.

Barrett’s union, the Boston Police Patrolmen’s Association, said they condemn and “strongly denounce these statements as being offensive and hurtful.”

But the union added that investigators should consider all the facts and not rush to a conclusion.

Good for them. One televised report I saw tonight said that while the guy is on paid administrative leave, that’s a requirement of the union contract and that the union isn’t otherwise backing this nitwit.

This cretin is a member of the National Guard and he blasted the offensive email out to fellow guardsmen and the Boston Globe. Stupid, stupid. He was interviewed by Channel 5 and blubbered on and on about how he’s not a racist and he regrets sending it out and he’s not a racist and he never meant to offend anyone and he’s not a racist and he didn’t say Gates was a jungle monkey, he was saying he acted like a jungle monkey, and he’s not a racist and he’s soooooooooooooooo sorry.

[Starving_Artist]

And your point is?

[gonzomax]

The point could be that racism exists in the Mass. police department. But anyone dealing with police should know that. Crowley is not the only one.

[tomndebb]

@you_with_the_face

I think some of yall are so beseiged with bias that you’ve completely and totally lost your mortal minds.

Perhaps. But you need a more appropriate way to express yourself on this point in Great Debates.

[ /Modding ]

[Gangster_Octopus]

Whether Crowley is a racist or what, I don’t know the answer. What I think is clear is that he acted inappropriately, possibly illegally.

[Magiver]

@Hippy_Hollow

uh… what she said.

People have vilified Gates, completely ignoring a career in the public eye… if the guy was a crackpot that screamed "RACISM!"every time something didn’t go well, he wouldn’t be as well-regarded as he is.

He’s a person (of refinement and intellectual achievement) that played the race card for no good reason. He then tried to throw his weight around and when that didn’t work threw in a “yo mama” to complete his fall from grace.

@Hippy_Hollow

I think it’s a nasty cocktail of racial bias, envy, and disdain for intellectual achievement (shit, it would have to be at Harvard, right, where everyone eats caviar, spits at common folk, and has handservants at their beck and call). Of course Gates played the “do you know who I am” card, in his tweed sportcoat, reading the New Yorker as a Crowley, the guy who tried to save BLACK Reggie Lewis’ life and is a trainer on racial profiling (and therefore himself exempt from any possible prejudicial behavior, right?) is only trying to do his job.

Sounds ridiculous, right? But that’s exactly what the thread reads like.

It sounds ridiculous because it is. A seasoned college professor racially impugned a police officer responding to a possible burglary and who then tried to intimidate him with social status. We can only judge Gates by his behavior. Your attempt to chastise the backlash against him ignores the fact that he is held to a higher standard because of his intellectual achievement. It’s all the more repugnant that Gates behaved in this manner. What reinforces this disdain for him is his lack of contrition. If he had apologized for it up front people would assume it’s a one-time thing but he chose a different route.

But since this thread is about the President, we’re now watching the “beer summit” in an attempt to smooth over a political gaff.

[gonzomax]

@Magiver

He’s a person (of refinement and intellectual achievement) that played the race card for no good reason. He then tried to throw his weight around and when that didn’t work threw in a “yo mama” to complete his fall from grace.

It sounds ridiculous because it is. A seasoned college professor racially impugned a police officer responding to a possible burglary and who then tried to intimidate him with social status. We can only judge Gates by his behavior. Your attempt to chastise the backlash against him ignores the fact that he is held to a higher standard because of his intellectual achievement. It’s all the more repugnant that Gates behaved in this manner. What reinforces this disdain for him is his lack of contrition. If he had apologized for it up front people would assume it’s a one-time thing but he chose a different route.

But since this thread is about the President, we’re now watching the “beer summit” in an attempt to smooth over a political gaff.

You figured it out. The little old black man intimidated and threw his weight around cowering the poor cop into a corner. I do feel sorry that that old black man probably terrified the cop with his cane.
If you believe the cop was perfectly correct in everything he did, you are delusional. I wish I lived where my cops were so nice ,like yours. But in the real world cops are all kinds, good ones, medium and bad ones. Crowley may have been clean before but he was wrong in this case.
There is a cop on TV right now explaining that calling him a banana eating jungle monkey is not racist. Good luck with that. Of course he never ,ever used that language before. If a cop says it, it must be true.

[Hippy_Hollow]

@Magiver

He’s a person (of refinement and intellectual achievement) that played the race card for no good reason.

What is the basis for this claim? The report written by Crowley, which is already proven to have inconsistencies, such as: 1) stating that he spoke to Whaley, the woman who called 911 - she categorically denies that he said anything to her expect “step back,” even when she identified herself as the caller, and 2) the statement that Whalen (or somebody else, since it wasn’t her) described “two Black males with backpacks.” It’s interesting that you give so much credibility to Crowley’s report, but none at all to Gates’ account.

He then tried to throw his weight around and when that didn’t work threw in a “yo mama” to complete his fall from grace.

Again, from Crowley’s report. Gates didn’t arrest Crowley; it was the other way around. Now, if Gates was able to get Crowley’s supervisor on the line and arbitrarily have him suspended or fired on the spot, that would strike me as throwing one’s weight around.

“Yo mama?” Even if you buy this is what Gates said (and I wouldn’t be surprised if he did), seriously, this is a “fall from grace?”

It sounds ridiculous because it is. A seasoned college professor racially impugned a police officer responding to a possible burglary and who then tried to intimidate him with social status. We can only judge Gates by his behavior. Your attempt to chastise the backlash against him ignores the fact that he is held to a higher standard because of his intellectual achievement. It’s all the more repugnant that Gates behaved in this manner. What reinforces this disdain for him is his lack of contrition. If he had apologized for it up front people would assume it’s a one-time thing but he chose a different route.

Let’s try this. A seasoned police officer entered a private citizen’s (who is also the homeowner) home, demanded that the completely innocent homeowner produce ID and even after by his own admission he had verified that the private citizen did indeed live there, did not leave the scene, but called for more police. (I think he should have called for backup before he got on the scene.) When the citizen protested and asked the officer for his name and badge number, he refused to give it, and asked the homeowner out of the house, ostensibly so he could arrest him (because you can’t disturb the peace in your own home).

The person who should be held to the higher standard is the guy with the gun, who has the power of life and death, or serious injury, and loss of liberty at his disposal. And I still maintain that nobody except Crowley has stated that Gates was disturbing the peace.

Gates has spent his entire career, and especially the last 20 years as the chair of the Afro-American Studies department, in the public eye. As a fellow academic, I can say with certainty that the cardinal sin of the academic world is being a liar. You can be a terrible writer, you can be crotchety and unpleasant to deal with - but as long as you are honest, you can eke out a living. Given the status that Gates has achieved, he’s cleared that bar. I’m aware of Crowley’s clean record and his teaching racial profiling courses. But are you aware of Gates equally clean record regarding his integrity and honesty?

What does Gates have to be contrite about?

[Magiver]

@Hippy_Hollow

“Yo mama?” Even if you buy this is what Gates said (and I wouldn’t be surprised if he did), seriously, this is a “fall from grace?”

Yes.

@Hippy_Hollow

What does Gates have to be contrite about?

Nothing if this is how he wants people to view him. The beer chugging contest was for the President’s benefit, not his.