Obama should be impeached

Can that letter include a request for articles of impeachment? Do I have your freakin’ permission to do that? Can I include my thoughts on a message board somewhere?

One thing this thread has taught me is that the usual double standards based on Republican/Democratic leanings around here are gone. The righties are all right with Obama Guantanamo, Obama stress positions, Obama wars in Iraq, irradiation at airports, etc. I don’t think it is creeping fascism, it is fascism. Whether it is Bush or Obama. I don’t have guns for the government to take away, but I have fear of what happens when someone is wrongly arrested. I’ve worked on enough civil false arrest cases to know that half of the 80 year old men who are falsely arrested and taken to jail supposedly attack corrections officers half their age and much bigger than them. It’s routine and people put up with it. We are an ugly people.

You can send “articles of impeachment” requests anywhere you wish. They’ll be handled with all the respect due to them.

I doubt that Obama is directly involved in the mistreatment of Manning. It would be difficult to build a case against him. The Repubs love the abuse of Manning, so they are not going to use it. So it goes nowhere.
I think we are wrong to mistreat any prisoners. I hate Abu Grebe, Guantanimo and the treatment of Manning. I am fond of doing things lawfully and humanely.

We have yet to see a cite that anyone is being mistreated. Sleeping in the buff is not mistreatment - I do it every night, and the only torture involved is when my wife puts her icy cold feet on my leg.

Or are you claiming that we should put him out into the general population, and take the risk that he gets butt-fucked to death by some buffed up armed robber? That’s a better alternative?

Or should we take no more precautions against his suiciding than for anyone else, and if he hangs himself some fine night, shrug our shoulders at the reduced cost to the taxpayer?

Regards,
Shodan

He did not have to stand naked at attention for 7 hours. He had to stand naked for morning inspection. He was left naked alone in his cell with two blankets. It’s not even clear if he is actually under suicide watch. And if he is there are other options besides enforced nudity. Like an anti-suicide smock. Manning was issued two blankets. Presumably if he was really thought to be a suicide risk they were anti-suicide blankets, which are made from the same material as the smocks. It doesn’t make any sense to deprive him of clothing for fear he’d hand himself while leaving him with bedding that would be equally effective. Neither is there any reason to provide him with an anti-suicide blanket, but not a smock. There’s also the option of paperish gowns and clothes which aren’t strong enough to make a noose.

>>Or are you claiming that we should put him out into the general population, and take the risk that he gets butt-fucked to death by some buffed up armed robber? That’s a better alternative?

Or should we take no more precautions against his suiciding than for anyone else, and if he hangs himself some fine night, shrug our shoulders at the reduced cost to the taxpayer?<<

I know little of the facts surrounding this case, but for the press accounts. A couple points:

First, from what I gather, a lot of the “parade of horribles” is coming from the defense team. While this source should not be discounted, it should be treated with high skepticism.

Second, with respect to the conditions of pre-trial detention in the military, the rules come from three general sources: Congress (UCMJ), Commander-in-Chief (Executive Orders, such as the Manual for Courts-Martial, Rules for Courts-Martial, etc.), and the Secretaries of the various branches of the Armed Forces. Generally speaking, a couple of those rules are important to keep in mind.

Art. 13, UCMJ prohibits pre-trial confinement as punishment. The Armed Forces’s highest court has long held that commingling of pretrial confinees with sentenced prisoners is “punishment.” Accordingly, those awaiting trial must be segregated from the general population of any facility, and held separately. And all that that entails, such as not wearing prison garb, etc., which have security implications for population control.

Pretrial confinees have long bitched in the military because of this commingling prohibition. For one thing, it prevents them from normal communal activities, such as working parties, recreation facilities, etc., and tends toward long, solitary stays in their cells.

Solitary confinement has been held not, by itself, to constitute pretrial punishment. It’s a situational determination. It has been authorized, in the past, for suicide prevention concerns, even when not formally elevated to "suicide watch,’ which calls for very stringent precautionary measures.

In this case, I’ve little doubt that real concerns exist about keeping this guy safe from other inmates or confinees. Given the nature of his alleged offenses, and the notoriety, the brig authorities are not about to let him mingle amongst a bunch of recent combat vets from Iraq and Afghanistan, who are arguably the most vulnerable to “whistleblowers” of Manning’s variety.

Finally, every brig or confinement facility has a well developed administrative appeal and complaint procedure, where a prisoner or detainee has an avenue of taking complaints “up the chain,” and outside the facility’s command authority. If there’s been violations of applicable rules and regs, I’d be flabbergasted to learn that his defense team have not availed themselves of this mechanism, and had his conditions carefully reviewed by a supervisory authority over brig officials. (Such as the base commander, via what’s called an “Article 138, UCMJ, Complaint of Wrongs,” consideration of which is not discretionary.)

Pretrial punishment is a big issue in the military. If interested, here is a brief overview of recent appellate scrutiny: TRIAL STAGES: Pretrial: Pretrial Punishment . Should Manning ultimately be convicted of something, I’ve no doubt these issues will again be raised before the military judge, and appellate courts, seeking sentence relief by an evidentiary hearing. We’ll hear all this, again, but this time with evidence, vice press releases from a defense lawyer. And all these brig practices and decisions by brig officials will be second guessed, big time.

The option is not treat him like a murderer or put him in genpop. They could treat him with the respect and dignity a man who has not gone to trial deserves. Find him guilty before you mistreat him.
Then don’t mistreat him.

They took away his clothes?

They took away his clothes?

They took away his clothes?

They took away his CLOTHES?!

THEY TOOK AWAY HIS CLOTHES?!?!

THEY TOOK AWAY HIS CLOTHES?!?!

THEY TOOK AWAY HIS CLOTHES?!?!

THEY TOOK AWAY HIS CLOTHES?!?!
OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!

Seriously. Wtf? President Obama deserves to be impeached over this?

Impeared, maybe. Inappled. But not impeached.

Could you please provide a cite that he has been mistreated?

Regards,
Shodan

He probably won’t be tried by a jury. He’ll face a court martial. It would be unusual for anyone charged under the UCMJ to receive a jury trial.

This is true. I expected much more concern trolling around here when Obama did not act as fast as he promised to stop the stuff you are talking about. Can’t say we haven’t had any, but it’s not as much as I thought there would be.

Kudos to The Second Stone.

When I read the cries for Bush to be impeached, I thought that this was clearly partisan politics at work. But I see I was wrong, at least as far as some folks go. Here’s a president who, by any rational measure, has committed acts that don’t even rise to Bush’s level of non-impeachiness, and here’s a call to impeach him – and not from the other side of the aisle, where it might be seen as tit-for-tat.

So:

(a) I see now that any calls to impeach Bush from The Second Stone were in no way a partisan reaction, but a genuine belief in the need, and

(b) You’re at least as wrong now as you were then, if not much more so.

I’m open to correction for specific crimes, but in general he’ll be tried by a jury. The jury will be composed of only members of the military (his peers), but that’s still a jury (as opposed to being tried by a Judge only).

Not as far as I can tell - the left is more or less OK with Obama Gitmo, Obama war in Iraq, Obama war in Afghanistan, Obama deficit, Obama lobbyists in government, Obama etc. Sometimes there’s some rather tepid criticism but it never amounts to much. And the lefties on the SDMB will seize on any opportunity to change the subject and go back to the only form of discussion they are comfortable with, which is attacking Republicans.

Regards,
Shodan****

Your guy paints himself into a corner, hands off to our guy and you complain that in 2 years Obama hasn’t erased what it took 8 years to get us into, all the while the GOP tries to hamstring his efforts.

And of course, Republicans never attack Dems. An external “enemy” is the only thing that keeps the GOP together. Dems can’t keep it together even when they do have one.

And the lefties on the SDMB will seize on any opportunity to change the subject and go back to the only form of discussion they are comfortable with, which is attacking Republicans.

Regards,
Shodan

You got us there. No lefty would *ever *turn the criticism inward, let alone suggest that a Democratic President be held to account for his actions. Ooh look, a shiny liberal!

>>I’m open to correction for specific crimes, but in general he’ll be tried by a jury. The jury will be composed of only members of the military (his peers), but that’s still a jury (as opposed to being tried by a Judge only).<<

One of the rights guaranteed to “persons” by the Constitution which is surrendered when one enters the armed forces is the right to trial by jury. “Jury” in the Sixth Amendment sense.

If a charge is referred for trial by court martial for a judicial proceeding (as opposed to the non-judicial disciplinary proceedings), the accused can elect trial by either court members or military judge alone. The court members will not be “peers” of the accused, as they will be only commissioned officers, or upon request, the court might be convened with at least 1/3 enlisted members, of a higher pay grade (rank) than the accused.

My guess is that, should this case be referred for trial by court martial, that the accused would request trial by military judge alone, given the nature of the charges and the media hoopla surrounding the allegations. The court members detailed to his case might very well be vets of recent combat, who know only too well the dangers to boots on the ground of disclosure of information which might seem innocuous to the civilian.

I have little doubt that Manning would much rather his case go to trial in federal district court than court martial.

Manning is being badly mistreated, but what is Obama’s part in it. Should Bush have been impeached for Abu Grebe?

Of course he shouldn’t be impeached, you can’t impeach Presidents solely for incompetence. He’ll be voted out soon enough anyway.