I would guess it’s a combination. And of course to be fair, we should also be clear about WHY there is so much concern for the group of people known as “Palestinians” when there lots of other groups out there with more serious grievances and more legitimate claims to statehood.
And of course those reasons include hatred of and opposition for Israel just as the US is acting in large part out of support for Israel.
Are you similarly troubled by the constant need to pretend that opposition to Israel is actually support for the plight of “Palestinians”?
What do we need South Korea for? What do we need Italy for? What do we need Germany for? What do we need the UK for? What do we need Turkey for?
Or is US support for Israel all you care about? And if so why?
Actually that’s a big part of the problem “Palestine” historically includes all of what is now recognized as Israel (as well as what is now recognized as Jordan). Even now, “Palestine” is de jure claiming many areas which Israel claims to be part of Israel and is not really hiding the fact that its ultimate goal is to put an end to Jewish sovereignty in the region.
I’m not sure what your point is here. Do you dispute that the main goal of the Arabs in this dispute has always been (and continues to be) to put an end to Jewish Israel?
Well you could, but it would require the end of Israel as a Jewish state. Which would probably require a military defeat of Israel. Ignoring the use of nuclear weapons, probably the US is the only country at this point capable of attacking Israel successfully.
That’s not the only argument, but it’s certainly the most important argument.
Of course not. If the Arabs get the chance, they will slaughter and/or chase out all of the Jews. So what?
Sure, but there are only two ways to achieve peace: (1) The Arabs give up on their dream of ending Jewish Israel; or (2) The Arabs succeed in their dream.
The second option would probably require a nuclear war. And giving the Arabs a 23rd state is counterproductive as far as the first option goes.
The truth is sometimes abhorrent. To me, the fact that the Arabs cannot accept Jewish sovereignty anywhere in the Middle East is even more abhorrent. But it’s no less true for being abhorrent.
It should be obvious by now that the Israelis are never actually going to let go of the WB so long as they are negotiating from a position of strength. It’s not the Palestinians who need to be demoralized here.
No, it is not counterproductive at all. It removes the Arabs’ main point of grievance – the one that makes sense even to the West – regarding Israel’s existence. And that will make a difference not only in the West. In this day and age, following up Palestinian independence with a rallying-cry of “Finish The Job!” is going to get some traction on the international Arab street – but not much, not even among moderate Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood. Today’s Arab world has new priorities, to which the problem of the Zionist Entity is largely irrelevant.
Nonsense, the Israelis have made clear that they are willing to do without the West Bank, starting from the original UN partition plan in 1947 all the way down to their most recent offer in 2000 or so which would have given the Arabs almost all of the West Bank.
It’s the Arabs who have rejected every offer. Because their true grievance is NOT that Israel controls the West Bank; their true grievance is NOT that there isn’t a Palestinian state; and their true grievance is NOT that there are Jewish settlements.
Their true grievance is that there is Jewish sovereignty anywhere in the Middle East.
No it will not, any more than any other appeasement has satisfied the Arabs.
More nonsense. Just look at Iran which is nowhere near Israel. Or Libya where each side accuses the other of being on the side of Israel.
P.S. If all the Arabs want is a Palestinian State on the West Bank and Gaza, then why did they reject the 1947 Partition Plan? And what evidence is there that their attitude has changed since then?
If all the Arabs want is a Palestinian State on the West Bank and Gaza, then why do they fire rockets into civilian areas of Israel? Why does Hamas insist that all of “Palestine” must be liberated?
If all the Arabs want is a Palestinian State on the West Bank and Gaza, then why does the PLO emblem contain an imagine which includes Israel?
If all the Arabs want is a Palestinian State on the West Bank and Gaza, why haven’t they offered citizenship to the descendants of Arabs who fled in 1948, just like Israel offered citizenship to all Jews?
If all the Arabs want is a Palestinian State on the West Bank and Gaza, then why did they reject the offer of such a state in 2000?
If all the Arabs want is a Palestinian State on the West Bank and Gaza,then why didn’t they set one up between 1948 and 1967 when they had full control of both areas? And what evidence is there that their attitude has changed since then?
I agree. If the Arabs (and the rest of the world) hadn’t spat in Israel’s face after the Gaza pullout, there would be a lot more support in Israel for leaving the West Bank.
Yeah, if we “demoralize” them enough, they’ll take what they’re given even if they have been through about 65 years of demoralizing without achieving that result.
One day we might be talking about why the Israelis don’t accept the best proposal the Palestinians are willign to make. What do you think THAT proposal would look like. Israel needs peace now as much as the Palestinians because one day it may be too late for Israel to achieve anything resembilg fair.
Right, because you’ve provided so much support for your ridiculous premise. I’ve provided the fact tahtn Palestine is a recognized state by the majority of UN members. It is at least arguably a state, isn’t it?
You say its not a popularity contest but to a large extent, the criteria you seem to get hung up on is largely determined by its interaction with other states.
Why do YOU think there is so much concern? Is it some global conspiracy of anti-semitism, the Protocols of Anti-Zion?
Pretending? Who is pretending? Do you think that the opposition to Israel is really code for something else?
And when we exercise our veto power time after time to abet the oppression of a people in Korea I guess you would have an apt analogy.
Italy, Germany, UK, and Turkey are part of NATO.
What other nation do we support to the extent we support Israel? What other nation gets as much foreign aid? Of the countries you listed, which nation has done to a people what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians?
Come back when Turkey starts rounding up the Kurds and putting them in ghettos for 65 years.
The “State of Palestine” has nothing to do with the aspirations of the militant members of Hamas. The state is the West Bank and Gaza with Jerusalem as its capital (soemthing haS to be done about jerusalem but they’re not claiming all of Israel as its nation).
A combination of anti-Semitism and support for anti-Semites for other reasons.
Pretty much everyone who whines about the “plight of the Palestinians.”
I think that concern for the Palestinian Arabs is normally motivated by antagonism towards Israel. I think that most anti-Israel sentiment is the result (directly or indirectly) of anti-Semitism.
Clear enough?
I’m not sure what your point is here. If the cold war is over and therefore there is no need to support Israel anymore, the same would seem to be true for the other countries I listed.
Cold War support is about more than exercising veto power at the UN. Did you know that we have signed a treaty saying that if someone attacks Turkey, it will be treated as an attack on the United States? Why are we doing that? The Cold War is over, isn’t it?
All of the countries I have listed have large US military presences in them. We have also signed treaties agreeing to defend Turkey, Italy, Germany and the UK. We have no such large presence in Israel and no treaty obligating us to defend Israel.
First tell me EXACTLY what Israel has done to the Palestinian Arabs, then I will answer your question.
Nonsense, take a look at the actual, formal application for Palestinian Statehood. It includes the West Bank, Jerusalem, Gaza, and more. Besides, Fatah formally reconciled with Hamas a couple months ago or at least pretended to.
P.S. Why is it that Arab school textbooks erase Israel?
I guess I see a difference between the genocidal implications of “driving Israel into the sea” and not caring enough about a majority jewish population in Israel (something that Israelis apparently think is a demographic inevitability) to perpetuate the Palestinian situation.
And yeah, I dispute that “arabs” want to put an end to a jewish israel. I think that if Israel and Palestine agreed to a two state solution, almost the entire arab world would be OK with that and move on regardless of waht sort of right of return provisions are in the agreement, but you’d have to get the Palestinians to agree to it (something at least some Palestinians seem to be ready to do).
Yeah that’s right. It would mean the end of israel as a jewish state so why not make a deal that you can live with while you still can before things deteriorate to the point where you can’t make a deal at all. It may be years, it may be decades but one day it will come.
Just because Egypt probably can’t successfully invade Israel (right now) doesn’t mean Russia and China couldn’t do it. They just wouldn’t bother.
And one day that may no longer be true and the Palestinians have a 65 year history of holding out for that day.
So make your peace with them before they get the chance.
I think you are imposing the sentiments of the most militant members of hamas on the entire arab world. You think Saudi Arabia or Qatar give a shit if Israel is Jewish as long as the Palestinian issue is resolved? You think that Mahmoud Abbas is trying to end Jewish Israel? You are arguing against sentiments in the arab world that haven’t existed for a while but if you let it go much longer, those sentiments might return.
I’m not sure what you mean but Israel may not be the only party with nukes in that conflict.
Yeah, but it doesn’t seem to be true. Once again, you seem to be projecting the desires of militant hamas on the entire arab world. The only part that seems to be true is the part where you still think you can beat Palestinians into submission despite 65 years of trying and failing.
Arab peace plan could. Depends on what you guys work out on the right of return. The vast majority of Palestinians have expressed a preference for compensation over becoming an Israeli
Seriously? Or are you just saying that to convince yourself that this is some sort of existential crisis. Not being able to maintain a majority jewish state is not an existential crisis.
What Arab leaders have offered to give up the “right of return”?
Because no such deal has been offered.
I kinda doubt it. Time seems to be working against the Arabs.
The only peace they are offering is the peace of the grave. I’m not sure how to make this any clearer.
Absolutely. Why do you think Israel has been erased from their textbooks? Why do you think that the “State of Palestine” will not offer citizenship to descendants of Arabs who fled in 1948? Why do you think Gaza refugees haven’t been returned to Gaza? Why do you think their patches and insignia include Israel as part of “Palestine”?
Then let them formally renounce such sentiments.
Israel could easily round up all the Arab leaders on the West Bank tomorrow and shoot them. Israel could easily take Beirut, Damascus, Anman, and Cairo between now and Sukkot. The only reason these things don’t happen is because Israel’s leadership can accept Arab sovereignty in the Middle East.
If the extreme right takes over in Israel – which is likely to happen eventually – there will be no more chance for a “Palestinian State.”
Yes. If the Arabs become a majority in Israel, they will (democratically) dismantle it as a Jewish state. At least they would attempt to. Probably there would be another civil war.