Obama has quoted from the Quran on many occasions.
Are you going to play the selective editing game now? You said he was “project[ing] his personal, Christian faith…” I said he wasn’t proselytizing, he wasn’t projecting.
Any particular reason why you edited my post in that way?
Can you give some examples of that, where his remarks were not directed toward a predominantly Muslim audience?
No. Why?
Because when I looked for some, all I could find were either his speech in Cairo, or sites where loons said he was putting secret Muslim symbols on the NASA logo and the like.
I’m asking why you would be seeking speeches not before predominantly Muslim audiences as your comparator. AFAIK, he makes such references when they would be most meaningful to his presumed audience.
The why for me is because this audience (within the walls) was the usual melting pot we find in this country. And the larger audience, the television viewers, are as well. And his choice of words was
"“Let the little children come to me,” Jesus said, “and do not hinder them – for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.
God has called them all home."
In this situation I would say it goes past proselytizing and borders on outright evangelism. In the ELCA we center on what we sometimes call “the Great Cs” - the Greatest Commandment and the Great Commission. If this speech didn’t meet the second C I’ve never heard one from any political figure that does.
I’m a Christian but one of those who likes my religion and government as separate as imaginable. So I’m trying to ask this fairly and not to start a fight ----- would we feel the same way if that speech had been delivered by Jerry Falwell, GW or someone else we didn’t like so much?
I never said that he was proselytizing, so that’s a strawman. That’s why I singled out that comment.
I think that is a very long stretch, it’s nothing of the sort.
If I felt it was spoken with the intent of pushing an agenda I would object no matter who said it. I don’t believe this was intended to push any agenda, and the context makes that clear.
I believe Rick Warren during Obama’s inauguration had an opening prayer, which concluded: “We now commit our new president and his wife, Michelle, and his daughters, Malia and Sasha, into your loving care. I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life—Yeshua, ‘Isa, Jesus [Spanish pronunciation], Jesus—who taught us to pray: Our Father, who art in heaven…”
I thought this was in poor taste and pushed the limits of what was appropriate. Obama was not asking people to pray with him in Jesus’ name. He wasn’t urging anyone to change their faith. The way Obama phrased the passage, I think it can be equally taken as a expression of religious faith, or a very well known literary references to the romantic notion of comfort after the tragic death of a child. I take it entirely as the latter, and never perceived for one moment that it was pushing Jesus on anyone.
I’m not saying that all speeches that refer to Jesus can do so in a non-offensive way like this. I think this was a truly outstanding speech, and the way in which the biblical reference was used was very well done. I simply reject the idea that people need to be timid using biblical language in a speech for fear of offending someone of another faith.
To put it another way, when Robert Oppenheimer said, “I am become death, destroyer of worlds,” he wasn’t actually trying to convince his fellow scientists of the wisdom of believing in reincarnation.
[Mother, looking at empty cookie jar] “Timmy, did you eat those cookies?”
[Timmy] “No, I didn’t. I didn’t even eat a crumb!”
[Pedantic Mother] “Who said anything about eating crumbs?”
Too bad Timmy couched his argument as a straw man.
Projecting your religion on someone else is very different from trying to convert them to your religion. Are you saying they’re even similar?
Just to be clear: I do no think Obama was trying to convert anyone to Christianity. OK?
Would any of you seriously walk up to someone you knew was Jewish, and who just lost his child, and say: I’m so sorry you last little Daniel. I hope you can take comfort in knowing how much Jesus loves him.
What’s different when you’re saying that to a crowd of people in which there are some Jewish people?
And is that really any different from Obama said?
I certainly wouldn’t. I know a number of people that would.
Well, pretty obviously, that some of the people in the crowd aren’t Jewish - in fact they are Christian and will comforted by a fellow Christian’s words. In an inter-faith ceremony I generally expect that each speaker will speak from their own faith.
Not really. Which is why I agree it’s borderline.
I think the fact that it was a religious occasion, that it was inter-faith, and that Obama’s endorsement was merely to quote Jesus, are all factors that make this far different from many more questionable acts of religion in public office.
Lacking any one of those elements–as in your hypothetical–it would be more problematic.
[Shakespeare] “But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.”
[SDMB translated version] “Lookit Juliet’s badonkadonk! That is HOT!”
So: similar gist, different sentiment, expressed differently. Not the same.
There we may have to agree to disagree. Looked at from the Christian standpoint and the Great Commission, our mileage may vary.
Clear? He was directly addressing his view of our future and future needs; basically over an open grave. And not some private communication, just to the families and community, that was then reported to or covered by the press. But as part of what was in the end an address to the nation. In other words, I am not as sure today that he doesn’t have a Christian agenda to go with his basic liberal agenda as I was this time last year.
And that is where we disagree. I want people to be timid about what they say sometimes - and judging by his reaction to some other events I would have thought our President would have agreed with me. People using biblical language to each other on a personal basis and a sitting President using it as he did last night are different. Maybe just to me, I will admit. But very different.
But it wasn’t a secular cermemony. It was explictly an inter-faith ceremony. So each speaker could speak out of his own faith. There was probably a rabbi there as well. If he said some Jewish prayers should the Christian families have been offended?
That’s a good point, and if Obama was a priest I can see where that would be different. He is speaking as a secular leader of the country and most of the people listening were mot there and didnt hear any of the other fairhs represented.
But I can see where you are coming from.
This was an interfaith service, many religious prayers were offered by religious leaders of all faiths. There’s no reason for the President to restrict himself from expressing his own faith in his own terms. A rabbi gave Jewish prayers, there were representatives from religions that weren’t present among the victims, no one else was accused of having a proselytizing agenda.
Then there’s not much I could say here to ease your concerns, but I really don’t see where your anxiety is coming from as I don’t believe it is reasonable to get that from the words Obama spoke.