Obese Boy Scouts not allowed to attend Jamboree. Fat discrimination or common sense?

I agree, but for some reason it’s very difficult to put up with a minor inconvenience hour after hour, day after day, month after month, year after year.

As an analogy, consider if somebody calls your phone accidentally. It happens now and then; you just tell them “sorry wrong number” and it’s no big deal. But imagine if you got a few calls like that a day. Imagine you got a few calls like that an hour. Eventually there’s a pretty good chance you will lose patience and either yell at the people who were calling or call the phone company and demand a new number or whatever.

So too with long-term weight maintenance. Your body is constantly whispering to you to eat more food; to eat junk food; whatever. It’s a minor inconvenience but there is a pretty good chance eventually you will slip and fall into a downward spiral.

I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it’s definitely a big challenge for most people.

Are there any studies supporting this claim which do not rely on self-reporting?

What’s the evidence for this? My impression is that fat people tend to get steadily fatter over the years whether or not they diet.

Well it’s a matter of semantics. For the sake of this discussion, I would define “starvation” as food deprivation which is so severe that there is a serious risk of death or serious injury.

Here’s a thought experiment: Imagine if there were a weight loss camp where fat people had their eating carefully monitored and they were given a daily amount of food which was healthy, well-balanced, and two or three hundred calories less than the amount necessary to maintain their weight. Otherwise there are plenty of fun activities to do.

After a few weeks, I doubt any of the camp residents would feel that they are “starving.” Probably most of them would feel pretty good as they slowwwwly lost weight. At worst they would feel mild discomfort now and then. Eventually those feelings would diminish (but never go away completely).

It would be a different story, of course, if the campers were subject to severe food deprivation.

I think Stoid is conflating the two.

Well, who’s asking anyone to do that? I mean, what leads to all these discussions and studies of severe calorie restriction? I wouldn’t expect anyone who is fifty or more pounds overweight to subsist and feel okay on less than 2,000 per day, but I might expect them to skip the fries and opt for a second beef patty instead, replace the Big Gulp with water and maybe avoid chips, mayo, and cookies altogether. Where is the pressure to deprive obese people of sustenance coming from that leads to all these claims of starvation and misery?

I don’t know – certainly not me. My position is that (non-crash) dieting is only mildly uncomfortable, but at the same time it’s difficult to endure mild discomfort over an extended period of time. (If, of course, you can easily get instant relief from that discomfort.)

People who frame dieting in extreme terms are doing themselves any favors. I’d never expect someone who is already supporting 75+ extra pounds to suddenly subsist on less than I eat each day. I’d never expect them to suddenly jump on a stair climber and hike 10 miles, either. (Likewise, I’d never expect a kid to suddenly switch from 3,000+ calories each day to the diet the Jamboree kitchen offers, or expect him to keep up with his healthier peers without plenty of prior exercise first, but this conversation has evolved beyond the original topic).

But the fact remains that some motivated and overweight people do successfully lose weight and keep it off, so we have evidence which disproves a barrage of testimonies that claim it’s impossible for an obese person to change his or her habits and maintain a healthier lifestyle.

I completely agree with this, and I suspect that peoples’ chances of success are significantly higher than the 5% which is normally quoted if they avoid fad diets, crash diets, and pretty much any diet or diet advice which promises to let them eat large amounts of very tasty food.

But it’s still pretty challenging by all credible accounts.

That’s the way we are accustomed to using the word, but in fact it means simply to deprive the body of sufficient nutrition to supply the body’s needs, forcing it to use fat and/or lean tissue to keep basic processes functional. To diet by calorie restriction is, by definition, to starve the body. If you don’t starve it, you won’t lose weight that way. You can starve it slowly or quickly, but you’re starving it one way or another if you are losing weight by cutting back.

In addition to using its stores and tissue, the basal metabolic rate slows and the body eventually stops losing, forcing you to feed yourself even less. Then when you go back to normal eating, you gain eating less than you did before and you almost always end up fatter.

You are free to define the word any way you like, but it does not change the reality that there is a big difference between the sort of modest energy deficit which comes with a sane diet and a massive energy deficit which comes from severe food deprivation.

You are trying to pretend that the two are the same but they are not. And calling both situations “starvation” is just semantic games, aimed at obscuring an important distinction.

This, and it’s harmful false information you’re attempting to put out there. Replacing 40 ounces of soda at 600 calories with water and skipping the 600 calorie large fry will not starve a thin person, much less a morbidly obese one.

You think you are doing obese readers a favor by feeding them these loaded buzzwords but all you’re doing is promising desperate people looking for validation that they will fail.

Yeah, I don’t think starvation is an appropriate term. I get what Stoid is saying, but if you are overall taking in enough calories to survive, you’re not starving no matter how uncomfortable it is. I’m relatively slim, and I’m also hungry for a significant portion of every day. If I’m hungry, no doubt my body is burning calories I haven’t taken in lately, but I wouldn’t call it starvation. It’s kind of offensive to call it that, actually.

I agree. It’s offensive because we have the media to show us what starvation looks like, even for those of us lucky enough to have never experienced it or seen it up close. I can see why anyone coping with obesity would frame their problem in terms of addiction using words like craving, withdrawal, triggers, etc. But starvation is just one too far, and completely removes sympathy from the abuser of the word.

I recall that the men were forced to perform a lot of physical activity.

It doesn’t matter to me one way or another what you guys think of the word starvation, that’s your issue. The important part is that these men were living off a little less than 1600 cal, and the results showed exactly what I talked about… Anyone who thinks that losing weight and keeping it off is just a matter of willpower or a little bit of discomfort Does not understand what other people experience, but what other people experience is quite real as this scientific experiment demonstrated very dramatically.
What they ate:

Selections from the book written about the experiment:

So perhaps, now that you know better, you will do better. By “you”, I mean those of you reading this who feel generally that fat people are just a bunch of self-indulgent whiners who could be thin if they just tried a little harder, and by “better” I mean now that you are no longer ignorant of the reality for those who struggle with obesity, you will be less likely to be unkind and judgmental about what their lives and their struggles actually are.

This is nothing more than semantic bs. And as far as that starvation study you linked to above me in the previous post, those 1500 or so calories were almost totally comprised of carbohydrates; virtually no protein or fat. A calorie restricted diet that also heavily protein and fat restricted is going to produce much more insatiable hunger and cravings than a typical, high protein, reduced calorie diet. It will also produce much more lean body mass loss.

Yeah, wow, that changes things. The effects of protein deprivation are pretty well understood.

No kidding…reduction of calories is one thing, but this diet was devoid. of necessary nutrition. Stoid, you of all people ought to be able to see that.

I’m beginning to wonder whether there is an ulterior motive.

Stoid, “could you be persuaded to share your personal experiences with weight and diet?”

I have already…look for my username and keyword obese.

My motive is very plain: to educate people who see the issue of obesity as simple and the struggle against it as a minor discomfort easily overcome if you try hard enough, particularly people who, like you, believe it is nothing but calories in and out.