"Obvious Facts" Debate thread

Since we can’t debate the obvious facts in this thread, here’s a thread just for doing that.

To kick things off:

Really? Even the part where he has to take a rib to make woman, even though he made man from dust? Even the part where God is stomping around, looking for Adam and Eve who have found a hiding place? Even the part where there are 2 of every animal (and 7 of some) in an ark that would be unable to fit all of them (and we can prove that, given that they specify the exact dimensions)?

And on and on. Genesis is a big book. I get what you’re saying, that the Big Bang sounds rather religious, but equivocating the Big Bang with all of Genesis is ridiculous.

So you’re saying that the Big Bang Theory has more Truthiness than Genesis?

Perhaps surprisingly, it apparently doesn’t - because otherwise it would have taken the world by storm, having both the appearance of truth and the actual truth on its side.

Not that the reason people reject the big bang has anything to do with what it says. It’s more to do with what it doesn’t say, I think; it fails to uphold any sort of theory of specialness, and challenges the assertions of specialness offered by special creation.

I’m saying that, from a layman’s perspective (which is what Paul in Qatar is referencing), the Big Bang contains one moment of “Hmm…really? That doesn’t sound quite right.”, while, going by the actual Book of Genesis, there are many, even if you’re Christian.

Heh, I don’t really see the point of all this. The book of Genesis was an allegory written by stone-age people FOR stone-age people. The Big Bang theory was a theory written by space-age people FOR space-age people, and has the advantage of being logically elegant while being pretty much unverifiable.

I don’t believe in the ‘facts’ of the Big Bang anymore than I believe in the ‘facts’ of Genesis. Both essentially relate a great explosion of light creating all matter in the universe.

Big Bang theory IMO should be held to a higher standard because it claims to be Scientific. The bottom-line to me is that what we refer to as the ‘beginning’ or the bang itself, is more of a limit on our own perceptions than it is a limit on the universe. It just tells me that once long ago the universe was in a different configuration from how it is now, and we cannot see beyond a certain point of brightness in some vast antiquity.

I have the suspicion that when we start actually travelling through space on a practical level, a lot of 20th century cosmology is going to be considered quaint. The Big Bang may very well be part of that.

In short, talking about the Big Bang is like talking about how a Mountain looks from the outside when you’ve lived in a cavern your whole life.

Come now, you know that there’s a great deal more in Genesis than “let there be light”. And you know that a great deal of it is pretty silly. So no need to draw a false equivalence to it and the Big Bang - you conceded Genisis is stone age myth, leave it at that.

And of course the big bang theory is useless to the average joe. That doesn’t make it “quaint”, though. It’s just a bit of arcane knowledge, that happens to challenge a widely held silly stone age myth. If it didn’t do that nobody would care about it. Which is the point - people still do put unbelievable credence in that stone-age myth, so fighting ignorance and all that…

But the Book of Genesis is much more than just the creation story. There’s a whole bunch of other unverifiable :dubious: stuff too. I’m just saying that it doesn’t “make as much sense”.

Suppressed? By who? And for that matter, why would that even be a reason for affirmative action? Unless you subscribe to the happy fantasy that genetic deficits in one area would automatically be made up for in another, some races would end up inferior, under your percentages. Which would result in the decline and eventual disappearance of this race simply by social selection, at some point.

Not that I agree with your assumption of 95% genetics/5% other. A great deal of “nature” is not in which genes one has, but in which ones are activated/deactivated–something that is primarily determined by the female’s amniotic fluid, the contents of which are partially determined by the pregnant woman’s behavior. Furthermore, a great deal of social conditioning has to do with what a person chooses to respond to in their own genes.

Who drew what equivalence? I am posting in a thread where such an equivalence was posited. I drew no equivalences whatsoever.

I didn’t say quaint by today’s standards I said I think it will likely be quaint by the standards of a true space-faring society.

Personally as I see it we should be saying, “We don’t really know how things were more than XXX years ago.”

What you say about Genesis is true, but those who like it think it was inspired by an all knowing deity for stone age people. I think they could have easily understood the outlines of the real story, like if it said that all was created more years ago than there are grains of sand in the desert. See how easy it is.

And of course the Big Bang has been verified, inasmuch as predictions made by the theory have been proven correct. That would have been a pretty good guess.

I don’t believe in the Big Bang either. Like evolution, I accept it because that is what the data says. Genesis, not so much.

Higher standard - absolutely. Well, actually religion, when it states something about the world, should be held to the same standard, but that is asking too much.
The limits of our seeing don’t have much to do with brightness, but is all about the amount of time light had to get here from someplace else. When someplace is further away than 14 billion years, we can’t see it.

Which is why I made a comment about ‘truthiness’. What you’re essentially saying is that an argument that is wrong can be more true because the argument is more sophisticated.

I disagree, if something is wrong it is wrong. I concede that the Big Bang might be accurate to a point, but my argument is that it’s silly to compare it to a Stone-Age myth for which YOU are not the intended audience.

Whatever.

But, we DO know. The point of lying about it would be, what, exactly? I mean, aside from the inherent pleasure of lying to people, I know that never gets old to me.

Seriously, do you have any reason to think that we will learn that the BB theory is wrong by the time we get out and start faring space? Note that expanding on it wouldn’t make it “quaint” - we’re still pretty nice about Newton despite Einstein, only chuckling behind our hands when we don’t think people are looking. To dismiss the BB theory the way you’re doing is tantamount to claiming it’s incorrect; why would you do that?

No, we have a theory that many people agree is elegant. I am skeptical about our ability to observe the origins of the universe.

Well, I am not saying it will essentially be disproven, merely that our understanding will surpass what was a good theory for the time.

As I said, I am skeptical about our ability to observe the origins of the universe. We have to take it on the good word of a handful of scientists and mathematicians that this is how it really happened, whose opinions are reinforced by those who have done some but not all of the math themselves, and as such take the word of the handful of scientists.

Basically, we get conflicting theories about nutrition on an almost daily basis, and the effects of nutrition are practically observable.

And I think you have a problem with what skepticism actually is. Skepticism isn’t saying that something is wrong, it’s simply the act of not confirming that you believe it’s right. Until I can verify it myself or I benefit from some technology that needs the theory to be correct in order to function empirically, I don’t believe it, pretty much.

I’m not so sure you and mswas disagree. We “know” what yesterday, and many many yesterdays ago were like. But isn’t there a point at which you would not use the word “know” to characterize the understanding we have of X years/eons ago?

I’m skeptical that you’ve properly assessed the implications of what evidence we’ve accumulated. Regardless, this is a poor reason to pretend ignorance of past events, as you suggest.

Re: skepticism. Supposing, for a moment, that the evidence isn’t solid for the BB theory. Maybe that great cabal of conspiring scientists is indeed chuckling into their black hats as they propogate the Great Lie. Presuming that this might be true - how should we assess the biblical myths?

Depends on what we know about it.

And I am skeptical that the vast majority of people who believe in the Big Bang have properly assessed the evidence. Which is precisely what I am saying. I didn’t say I disbelieve it, only that I don’t believe it.

I didn’t suggest that they were being dishonest, merely that they might be over-reaching.

How should we assess biblical myths? As insufficient explanations to be considered meaningful.

The question is: is there any time in the past that you are uncomfortable characterizing our understanding of it as “knowing”?

I have no particular interest in trying to educate mswas in modern cosmology, but just in case anyone else is reading this, I wanted to address the idea that the Big Bang theory is “unverified” or “unverifiable”.

Part of this I was able to come up with off the top of my head, and much of it I’m cribbing from Wikipedia. I don’t claim to be an expert on this, or even terribly knowledgeable about cosmology as laymen go, but I have had some formal and informal schooling on this, and I think I know enough about the science (and about how Wikipedia works) to grasp the basic details (and also to have noticed if some nitwit had just vandalized the Wikipedia article to say that “We know the Big Bang is true because the unicorns told us so”–or even to spot more subtle forms of vandalism).

1.) The observed expansion of the Universe. We can observe the Universe to be expanding based on observed redshift of distant galaxies; we can tell that light from distant galaxies has been “redshifted” from well-established principles of spectroscopy; spectroscopy is dependant not only on astronomical observations but can also be studied on labs right here on Earth. The idea of a Doppler shift producing a “red shift” when an object is receding from the observer is also something that can be studied and tested right here.

The pattern of red shifts is not only consistent with a large-scale general expansion of the Universe–that is, expansion at the scale of galactic clusters and so on; the possible expansion of your waistline is not related–but it is also inconsistent with, say, a really big explosion inside space. It is consistent with a general expansion of space itself. The classic analogy (which I learned as a liberal-arts major undergrad mumblety-mumble years ago) is that our space is the Flatland-style surface of a 3-D balloon that’s being blown up. From every point on the balloon, a Flatlander will perceive himself to be at the center of a general expansion, with more distant objects receding more quickly, which is (analogously speaking) exactly what we see in three dimensions. (I don’t pretend that I can directly visualize a fourth spatial dimension, nor do I pretend to understand how our 3-D space can be so expanding without being “embedded” and “expanding into” a higher 4-D space, but I don’t find my inability or unwillingness to have mastered the math of that is enough to make me reject what the scientists are saying here.)

  1. The famous three Kelvin microwave background radiation. When things get hot, they “glow”; they give off electromagnetic radiation. There is a relationship between something’s temperature and the wavelength (for visible light, the color) at which it radiates. Again, this is stuff that can be experimented on in labs right here. The properties of the 3 Kelvin radiation in terms of its uniformity and so on are such that it very well matches the Big Bang theory’s prediction of a cosmic microwave background radiation.

(Note that the expansion of the Universe was discovered first, and then the Big Bang theory was developed in order to explain the observation. The microwave background radiation was predicted by the theory, although the exact details of what was actually found were in turn used to further refine the theory.)

  1. Another thing the Wikipedia article points out is the relative abundance of primordial elements. The elements in your body, in the air you breathe, and in the things all around–trees and tables and computers–were formed in massive stars that then exploded in supernova explosions. However, those stars themselves had to be made of something–lighter elements, mostly hydrogen, some helium, and a trace of lithium–and the Big Bang theory in turns explains where those building blocks for stars came from, and (roughly at least) why they are in the proportions we observe them to be in.

  2. Finally, there is the large-scale structure of the Universe we see. When we look further out in space, we look further back in time, and we see different conditions–quasars and very young stars instead of the more sedate galaxies and older stars of the here-and-now.

With the observed structure of the Universe, especially at very large scales, we again see a pattern where theory makes predictions, and then the observations that are actually made are used to further refine and shape the theory.

None of this is to say that the Big Bang theory won’t be further refined, or that there aren’t important things we don’t yet undertand about the Universe, or even that it’s impossible that the Big Bang theory won’t just be refined and modified but might actually be entirely supplanted some day. But it is an important theory, with solid evidence for it, one of the pillars of modern science, and is accepted–for very good reasons–by the vast majority of people who take the time and effort to study these things.

Incidentally, note how easy it is to say “Oh, there’s no evidence for that!”, and how many words it takes to refute such a claim, if one wishes to go beyond just saying “Is too!”

I think a lot of what makes people reluctant to agree that it’s the truth is that it has the same failure as an explanation of how the world came about as Genesis: if you step back far enough you are still getting something springing up from nothing. Where did God come from before he was able to create the world? Where did the cosmic matter that compressed before the big bang happened come from? If you feel that they’re both flawed, it’s not difficult to decide that one isn’t more valid than the other, and the whole God thing sounds nicer…

MEBuckner What I find incredulous is that we know what occurred before the ‘First Stars at 400m years’ mark on this map: http://bccp.lbl.gov/Images/wmap.gif

That depends on what level of detail you want. For any time more recent than 380,000 years after the beginning, we can directly observe what the Universe was like. We can make some inferences about things before then, based on what we observe of things after that, and we can design experiments that will eventually let us directly observe things earlier than that, using neutrinos or gravitational waves (thought the technology and funding isn’t quite there yet, for those). So I’d say that for most things after 380,000 years, we know them pretty well, and for some things before that. For instance, we know a lot about the composition and density of the Universe at the time of nucleosynthesis (because we can directly observe, in a laboratory even, the atoms that were formed at that time), but we know very little about the inflationary epoch, since all we know about that is what we can infer from the traces left in the cosmic microwave background, and we may well be completely wrong about it.