#OccupyWallStreet

[Scylla]

@Zeriel

I don’t know about the other two, but it’s been my impression (having my toe barely in the commodities market as a hedge) that gold demand has been accelerating, not steady, for a few years now at least. The same is true of oil over a longer timeline (at least since 2002 or so), is it not?

Frankly I think you two are talking past each other–my own financial adviser will sometimes say “steady demand” to mean “steady increase in demand” when discussing commodities, whereas I’d interpret “steady demand” to mean “no change in demand”.

That’s a great question. I need don’t think industrial of consumer demand for actual physical gold has just changed all that much. It’s used in some industrial processes, for some electronics, and, of course, jewelry. Then there are some gold bugs who wish to hold physical gold themselves. A lot of these are dissuaded by the actual cost of having the gold assure should they ever wish to sell it in the future. So, for physical gold, I would say the actual demand has remained fairly steady. That is, not changing an awful lot.

The price of securitized gold as measured by spot price has quadrupled over the last five or six years.

So, there’s steady demand in the underlying asset fueling speculation.

[Scylla]

Fucking iPhone keeps changing my words. “the cost of having the gold assayed,”. Not “assured.”

[elucidator]

When were you going to tell us, Scylla? Been in the industry for years and years, when did you tell us to be wary? When did you say “If you’ve got your savings or your pension funds in one of these hyper-leveraged investment houses, flee! Flee, I say, grab your money and run! if a man shall tell you that you can have an investment as solid as T-Bills but returning twice, three times the profit, he is a thief or a fool. And if you believe him you are not a thief!”

I recall reading this from others, though it was hard slogging, the technical arcana of finance would daunt a Talmudic scholar. But there were such voices, here and there, and largely ignored. Was one of them you?

When AIG began selling insurance on losses from their own securities, did you dash down here to advise us that something was terribly, terribly wrong? If you knew, why didn’t you tell us? If you knew, who *did *you tell? And if you didn’t know, why should we listen to you now? What good is all of your hard-won education and experience? To what worthy end did you use them?

Your colleagues and co-workers? How much money did they lose? Were they duped as well, and if so, by whom? If they were duped, then we might readily forgive them, but not to the extent of trusting their judgement, I daresay. And if they lost their savings as well, then where did all that money go? Was it hauled away in trucks and burned in a landfill?

I was a financial worker, briefly, in my childhood. My great-grandmother gave me two nickels for the ice cream truck, one for her, one for me. Imagine my dismay when I discovered that I had lost her nickel!

[Scylla]

Rtf:

Fair warning:

If you want to expend the effort to post at me, that’s your business, but don’t expect me to reward your effort with a reply any more. Pissing contests and skunks. There’s no fun or upside in it for me.

[Scylla]

Elucidator:

No. I thought that everything was going to be ok. I never thought things would get any near as bad as they did.

[magellan01]

@John_Mace

The first list that Red Fury posted, above, looks like a hodgepodge of every leftist cause, down to a bone thrown to PETA (pun intended). They call themselves 99-percenters, but those look like the complaints of, maybe, 10-percenters if we’re talking Americans.

Exactly correct.

[elucidator]

@Scylla

Elucidator:

No. I thought that everything was going to be ok. I never thought things would get any near as bad as they did.

I believe you. I most often think you wrong, but not dishonest, even though you often stoop to argumentative techniques that ought to beneath you.

So I mean no malice when I ask: with all your hard won education and experience, you didn’t know? Such being the case, how can we accept your arguments based on education and experience that has failed so spectacularly?

[elucidator]

@John_Mace

… They call themselves 99-percenters, but those look like the complaints of, maybe, 10-percenters if we’re talking Americans.

I don’t think they mean to suggest that 99 per cent of Americans agree wth them, ninety-nine percent don’t agree puppies are adorable. They mean that, in terms of relative power, one percent has far, far too much, ninety-nine percent far too little.

They are wrong, in that the power is there, and it is ours, we need but reach and grasp it. Either of the Koch Brothers wields a million times the political power you or I do, even as we are widely admired of a message board.

[Scylla]

@elucidator

I believe you. I most often think you wrong, but not dishonest, even though you often stoop to argumentative techniques that ought to beneath you.

So I mean no malice when I ask: with all your hard won education and experience, you didn’t know? Such being the case, how can we accept your arguments based on education and experience that has failed so spectacularly?

Hindsight is 20/20, which is a lot different from being able to predict. Also, realize that most aren’t trying to “predict” so much as manage risk.

For example, if you are playing blackjack and show 18, I can tell you that it is a bad idea to hit. It remains true even if a 3 comes up.

[Ann_Hedonia]

@Frank

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
Right here with you and me,
But, Joe, I said, you got arrested yesterday for blocking traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge,
I was tricked, said he.

I really don’t get the whining about the arrests, I thought getting arrested was an integral part of the civil disobedience experience.

[elucidator]

Ah, so they lost money as well? Do we see men in expensive suits lining our freeways with signs saying “Fucking stupid, please help!”?

Or is it that they have taken a stern lesson, their consciences tormented by depositing fat bonus checks. So bitterly rebuked, we can trust them now?

[Scylla]

@elucidator

Ah, so they lost money as well? Do we see men in expensive suits lining our freeways with signs saying “Fucking stupid, please help!”?

Or is it that they have taken a stern lesson, their consciences tormented by depositing fat bonus checks. So bitterly rebuked, we can trust them now?

I have no love at all for th executive office, and I don’t think they do anything to justify their outlandish compensation. Below that elite level, an entire industry was destroyed tens of thousands lost jobs, and all their savings and retirements, so yeah, it’s pretty fucking sad actually. I don’t think it had to happen.

[elucidator]

@Ann_Hedonia

I really don’t get the whining about the arrests, I thought getting arrested was an integral part of the civil disobedience experience.

You mean to tell me that some of these people are self-absorbed assholes? Well, there you have it! No protest against wholesale greed and corruption is valid unless comprised solely of people of impeccable character and faultless moral fiber!

[RTFirefly]

@Scylla

That’s a great question. I need don’t think industrial of consumer demand for actual physical gold has just changed all that much. It’s used in some industrial processes, for some electronics, and, of course, jewelry. Then there are some gold bugs who wish to hold physical gold themselves. A lot of these are dissuaded by the actual cost of having the gold assure should they ever wish to sell it in the future. So, for physical gold, I would say the actual demand has remained fairly steady. That is, not changing an awful lot.

The price of securitized gold as measured by spot price has quadrupled over the last five or six years.

So, there’s steady demand in the underlying asset fueling speculation.

Let’s see: you’ve got steady demand for physically possessing and using the yellow metal, but the price of securitized gold had quadrupled.

So steady demand created the bubble.

Nah, there’s nothing missing from this picture.

Couldn’t have been anyone increasing the demand for securitized gold while leaving the demand for the physical stuff unaffected, by wanting to own an ounce or ten that would continue to sit on the same shelf in the same vault after they bought it as it did before.

Or, to abandon sarcasm, there could have been a lot of such persons, a dramatic increase in such persons.

‘Steady demand’ in action. :rolleyes:

[RTFirefly]

@Scylla

Rtf:

Fair warning:

If you want to expend the effort to post at me, that’s your business, but don’t expect me to reward your effort with a reply any more.

Oh, I’m crushed.

How will I live, without the hope of such ‘rewards’? I feel myself going through Kubler-Ross’ five stages even as we speak.

Pissing contests and skunks.

The degree of your distaste for pissing contests is evident from the language you’ve chosen to use in this thread. :rolleyes:

There’s no fun or upside in it for me.

I can see that, considering all the posts you devoted to telling me you weren’t going to reply to my arguments.

You’re beginning to resemble one of those wingnuts who keeps on threatening to go Galt and leave the rest of us without his irreplaceable productivity, but unfortunately never does.

[elucidator]

This.

[John_Mace]

@elucidator

I don’t think they mean to suggest that 99 per cent of Americans agree wth them, ninety-nine percent don’t agree puppies are adorable. They mean that, in terms of relative power, one percent has far, far too much, ninety-nine percent far too little.

They are wrong, in that the power is there, and it is ours, we need but reach and grasp it. Either of the Koch Brothers wields a million times the political power you or I do, even as we are widely admired of a message board.

Good point. I still think they need to narrow their message and focus on things that can actually be achieved. Most of us laughed at the Tea Partiers because they were so disjointed and unfocused in what they were trying to accomplish. I’m seeing pretty much the same thing here-- a lot of anger, but no real path towards concrete goals.

But it’s still early, so I say give them time and see how this plays out. They seem to be young and idealistic, which is not a bad thing.

[RTFirefly]

@Scylla

2. I recently started a thread on Krugman for his very unsober comments and partisan behavior.

OK, you mean your Open Letter to Paul Krugman.

I confess I’d blocked that out of mind already. Mostly, it showed just what a small and silly person you were, and how desperate you were to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Between that thread and this, my conclusion is that you should seek professional help.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@elucidator

You mean to tell me that some of these people are self-absorbed assholes? Well, there you have it! No protest against wholesale greed and corruption is valid unless comprised solely of people of impeccable character and faultless moral fiber!

This is why I have trouble feeling too contrite over exaggerating your position–it’s pretty much your modus operandi. Used once in awhile for a rhetorical flourish as a side-point, there might be a place for it. But your approach–exaggerate what someone said until it’s sufficiently ridiculous and then mock their effigy–is a poor substitute for engaging seriously with what people say.

[elucidator]

Why even bring it up, Lefty? For starters, how many people are we talking about, here? When you use the inclusive “they” you mean all of them, more or less, yes?

What is your evidence that this is so? is there polling, somewhere, that says 70% of them complain about being arrested? 80%? What? Are you offering your intuition as evidence?

Do we not have a right to assemble and petition for a redress of grievance? Or is this right somehow less significant, of less importance, than the orderly movement of traffic? If an ambulance came through the crowd, sirens blaring, wouldn’t they stand aside?

Proportion, Lefty, proportion! If they can use traffic laws to disperse us at their discretion, to silence us, they will. I don’t require noble self-sacrifice, or martyrdom, I require that they give a shit.

And if my sarcasm and modus offend your delicate sensibilities, don’t read it. My names right up top there, no stealth snark is likely. Just pass it by. I’ll get over it.