#OccupyWallStreet

All derivatives are not CDOs. CDOs held are not the same as CDOs written. Furthermore, you might approve of some of the derivative instruments that they hold. Used properly they can help a bank hedge and mitigate risk. It is probably not safe to assume that every derivative they own is a toxic CDS.

Finally, if I enter into a single options contract on Goog, for example, the underlying asset is worth $59,150. My exposure may be $100 bucks, the full 59,000 or more, or anything in between. So, you need to be cautious in your assumptions concerning what those numbers you are reading mean.

Notional value IS a useful sanity check, however. When the outstanding instruments claimed by a single institution are worth (on paper) multiple times the GDP of the country in which that institution resides, something smells mighty funny.

Meanwhile, back at Occupy Oakland, a Mercedes (because it could not be any other type of car, could it?) driver, angry at being blocked by people crossing the street, guns the engine and runs over 2 protesters: Occupy Oakland Video Of Mercedes Driver Hitting Protesters.

At least we can agree on one thing: **gonzo **barely has the financial understanding required to buy a pack of gum and get the right change back. I was working up a line of questions to figure out what the hell he was on about when I realized he’d abruptly decided to change the subject from CDS to derivatives in general.

That said, those numbers are STILL scary, because the sheer raw value of them implies that there’s a significant amount of leveraging going on–cursory googling returns a cite from Rutledge Capital (http://rutledgecapital.com/2009/05/24/total-assets-of-the-us-economy-188-trillion-134xgdp/) estimating the TOTAL assets in the US economy in 2009 at approximately $187 Trillion…and BoA is claiming to have derivatives worth more than a third of that?

Please be a banker… please be a banker…

Oooh an S class! Personally, I think the Gwagon is the best choice for the job, but I can understand if the driver was going for something more understated.

Who said protestors were good for nothing? They can always get a job as speed bumps.

That’s how you’re going to spend the “thinking conservative” cred you got from the waterboarding thing, eh?

You blew off what a former deputy assistant Treasury secretary had to say as total bunk not even worth a reply. Can’t see why you’d treat a fund manager any better if he says things you don’t like, which he does. In abundance.

And all the evidence is that you’re an even bigger idiot if you pick your own stocks, unless (perhaps) you do this for a living. Regardless of the weaknesses of investing through index funds, almost anybody who can’t afford to spend a big chunk of his life learning the market will do even worse by picking their own stocks than by investing in index funds.

And I say ‘perhaps’ because the majority of fund managers don’t outperform the market either.

This is all old news. This isn’t anything anyone discovered yesterday.

Anything even stupider you wish to say, Little Lord?

Yeah, have your starting point being a market peak. Of course the S&P is going to look pretty crappy. Thought of comparing peak-to-peak, or trough-to-trough?

You’re dishonest with the simplest things.

Then you admit that popularity, rather than underlying value, has the larger effect on stock prices.

At any rate, I buy indexes not because I’m smart, but because I recognize my limitations. I’m sure that if I decided to pick my own stocks, I’d probably do worse than index funds do, because that’s what generally happens to even pretty well-educated people when they pick their own stocks.

Now you may be an exception. Maybe you’re doing great in the market, even in sucky times. More power to you if you are.

Or maybe you’re just a lying fuck. It would certainly be consistent with who you are on this board.

But even if you’re not, it doesn’t mean you know jack shit about anything else, including what role Wall Street played in getting us from the economy ca. 2007 to the way it’s been for the past couple of years.

So, Little Lord F., if you want to be taken seriously, better join the rest of us in the pig wallow. :slight_smile:

Shit if you want to hang all the bankers don’t think we’re not going to try and take a few of you with us, and screw you if you can’t take a joke you humorless IT drone.

Too late - you already done did, back when hardly anyone was mad at the banksters yet.

I guess you didn’t notice. No biggie. :rolleyes:

It’s funny how certain kinds think it’s a ‘joke’ to make fun of bad stuff happening to people they don’t like.

I think such people are commonly known as ‘sociopaths.’

The stock market went from 750 to over 1200 under Obama. Why do the investors hate him? He made them even richer, while Bush’s policies crashed their portfolios.
Maybe they think Bush is one of them, although incompetent. They will settle for that.

To be fair, I thought it was pretty funny. :smiley:

Also, I think maybe one thing we should bring up is exactly what the movement can achieve. That is, what legal measures would, ideally, be feasible? Overriding Citizens United is one thing that’s already making its way through the Senate, and I imagine reinstating Glass-Steagal would be a wonderful step, as well as raising the top tax brackets… Any other suggestions?

How do you “override” a SCOTUS decision in the Senate? Are they going to amend the constitution?

That’s actually what they’re trying to do. They have a Constitutional Amendment in process. I’m not sure what the exact purpose and wording are, and it’s not going to actually go anywhere, since they can’t even get a simple statute passed with that extra-constitutional 60-vote requirement.

OK. Agreed it won’t go anywhere. Might make a good campaign sound bite, though.

Troll:

Your article doesn’t contain anything I like or don’t like. It has no relation to anything I said. It’s mostly about taxes which is not my field. You directed that at me claiming that I would ignore it. The implication is that there is something in there relevant to something I said. So, for the second time, what is it?

Next you claim that people will do worse picking individual stocks than they will in index funds. If you wish to make that claim, then you need to prove it. Please do do.

Next you say the majority of managers don’t outperform their indexes. This is true. But, some do and some do consistently, and they are not that hard to find. ABALX has been doing so fairly consistently since before the great depression, as one example. More importantly, a lot of funds are not trying to beat their Indexes. Some seek to have a lower beta or a higher upside/downside capture ratio, and the, of course, some just suck.

Next, you claim I am somehow being dishonest by choosing a market peak as my starting point. I’m not sure why that would matter, I simply chose a ten year period as a reasonably standard point of comparison, but, for the record, here is the data for a list of the 27 stocks in the SP that have raised their dividend 25 years in a row:

1 year - 19.35 for the strategy versus 15.06 for SP
3 years - 5.67 avg annual return versus negative 2.85 for SP
5 years - 6.27 versus 2.29
15 years - 9.78 versus 6.76
20 years - 11.46 versus 9.4

Again, these are as of December 31, 2010, assumes reinvestment of all dividends. This is an audited #. I can’t post my source for regulatory reasons. However, I could send my audited #s to a third source for verification if I had to.

So, those are real, and I think that basically proves that this accusation of yours is a specious lie.

Next, yes I do admit that popularity has the largest effect on stock prices. A moment’s reflection will show why this is not an argument in your favor, and, in fact, I explained why in my last post. You appear to be slow.

Next you.aim that I might be a lying fuck but even if I’m not it doesn’t prove I know anything about anything else. True, but I don’t think has challenged me on anything factual, or anything g to do with the mechanics of markets that Ive described.

Finally you say my being a lying fuck is consistent with who I have been on these boards.

Maybe.

But I know you for a fact to be a troll and to be the worst kind of coward. A year or two ago when you were trolling after me, I threatened to go to a dope feet and meet you. I did this under the theory that there is a certain kind of asshole on the Internet, a nebbish or coward who gets his rocks by being hostile and antagonistic with a target of their choice as a way to compensate for their inadequacies. You know, people that act tough on the Internet because they are so fearfull in real life. Well, when I threatened to meet you, you freaked out, confirming my suspicion. I didnt bother to meet you and you haven’t bothered me since. Now you’ve come a trolling again.

You kind of disgust me.

It is difficult for a person to see an industry is rapacious and dishonest ,when their livelihood is dependent upon it. You can justify a lot when it feeds you. You can also close your eyes to the pain it causes others. This is not new.
People in the oil business can find ways to respond to the Gulf Disaster. It is normal to psychologically make excuses for it. Bankers are doing the same thing. They need cleaning up, big time.

I think most of those are either doomed or undesirable. However you know what I think would be a good idea? Break up large banks, and have progressive li
Limits on bank’s behaviors as they grow so that the bigger they are the more conservative they have to be.
Too. It to fail is a real problem. BOA could be broken up into about 7 companies. 5 of them would be great companies I’d like to Invest in. Two of them not so much.

To whom are you talking?

Didn’t you already do that, in terms of destroying the dollars that are the representation of the labor hours of our lives?

Joking about actual people getting hurt, when the time since it’s happened can be fairly measured in hours? No, not funny. Run along, now.