BPC:
Again, sorry about the delay. I wanted to watch the video again and attempt to give your post the attention I felt it deserved.
I really don’t see it that way. I sense however that you are debating in good faith and trying to be as fair as possible. I believe that I have already conceded to Fear Itself that I may have overreached with my word choice.
Essentially I feel that we are in agreement on the salient facts and issues, and in that spirit I’ll accept your criticisms in the spirit they were offered.
Again, I think you are being fair. Realize that I used a couple of sentences or two to describe a pretty complex thing. In the nature of that, I oversimplified. Clarifications and refinements are welcome, and I think they serve my larger point which is simply that Tarp was not a unilateral thing.
Considering our history, I am most impressed with the integrity and thoughtfullness of your arguments. Frankly, I hope things stay this way between us. I’m impressed and I think your recent posting history is a pretty strong example that anyone would do well to emulate.
Thank you. You’ve made it a pleasure.
So, as the weather turns cold this is the next step for the occupy movement. Wonderful!
I admire your courage!
Taking the movement into the luxury lives of the wealthy 1% and their puppets.
I am sincerely moved.
Really? I think you are setting the bar for “courage” pretty low. I really can’t see this as anything but inconsiderate. Interrupting a speaker to insert your own agenda is jut plain fucking rude.
Why on earth can’t they just get their own venue, charge what they wish and allow interested parties to listen? If they did that and some right wing asshole interrupted, I would think it’s just as wrong.
Getting captured by the enemy and remaining silent while your teeth are pried out with a bayonet because you won’t betray the position of your unit, That is courage. Going to work at a job you hate and that demeans you to provide for your family, that is courage.
Theseaeriee just rude assholes and it makes no difference whether or not their cause is just.
People like this are why I hold this movement in such total contempt.
No it is not. You have been down on the movement from day one. You think you have found a way to justify yourself. Your eyes have been shut to the occupiers while you have looked for a way to justify the belief you came in with.
That’s a no-brainer: media coverage.
Next question?
From whence this awesome power? To peer into the characters and minds of thousands of people you don’t know squat about? Must be telepathy, because it damn sure ain’t empathy. Sympathy, of course, is right out!
And rude? Rude, seriously? You’re the guy gonna give them pious sermons about being rude? That’s like being sternly lectured by Charlie Sheen on the virtues of moderation and abstinence.
JesusScylla – and after reading your latest posts I do mean you should literally append ‘Jesus’ to your moniker – think you might be taking the whole “manly ruggedness” thing to an unhealthy extreme? Seriously, gets to the point where I am almost relieved you choose to run to exhaustion and beyond, otherwise you’d be self-flagellating like a Mother Fucker.
Kind of like living Gibson’s The Passion Of The Christ on a daily basis. No wonder that with those lofty (actually, you’ll pardon my saying so, but to me they come off as truly bizarre. See, I don’t go looking for pain, it manages to find me just fine – in spades and in all of its forms.) standards there’s nothing the OWS movement can do that you’d praise. However, from where I stand, I find them admirable.
This world of ours could certainly do with less pain and more justice. And believe it or not, that’s what this movement is working very hard for.
Now, Red, there’s nothing unmanly about being open and forthcoming about one’s traumas. Perhaps there is something you could share with the group, to show your support? For instance, I understand you were born Yurpeen. How do you feel about that? This could be a genuine healing moment for you!
No trouble. Let’s get down to business, shall we…
Fair enough… But the media wasn’t going to report on them if they didn’t do this. Hell, even now, a lot of mainstream media is just badmouthing them. An online protest won’t get you any media attention–I’ve seen e-petitions for the legalization of pot with hundreds of thousands of signatures get essentially completely ignored by everybody. Meanwhile, that same petition put out through the appropriate physical channels, or 10,000 people rioting and demanding the end of a ridiculous prohibition… That’s gonna get some attention.
Wait wait wait… Your argument is “Have a little perspective, people!”? I mean, at least you admit that your stance on such things is that of a minority, but I have to ask: how much could I make your life worse before you start complaining? How unfair would I have to be before you start complaining? I mean, from what I’m seeing, either I could basically steal your house, car, and all of your savings, and then turn around and say “Stop bitching, people in Subsaharan Africa have it way worse than you, and don’t get me started on those who lived a million years ago!” and you’d accept that, or your philosophy only applies to other people. I’m getting the feeling that if I even squatted on your lawn for a few days (despite the fact that I am worse off than you through no fault of my own–living with a single mother who works for barely above minimum wage while not being legally able to work yourself is shit), you’d already call the cops, let alone if I traded all of my possessions for yours, or just took everything you have.
Actually, to pull theft out of the equation, let’s imagine that I’m a finance banker, and you have a mortgage on your house and a loan on your car, plus your savings are with me. Through creative accounting, I go bankrupt. You lose your savings, your mortgage fails after a few months after that because you have no savings any more, and you lose your car as well. All of a sudden, you’re in the position a surprisingly large number of people were after the crash of '06. Do you complain then?
The problem with perspective is that it’s relative. I’m sure you’re going to come up with some reason why me stealing from you is wrong, or why sharing with me disadvantages you seriously… But of course, that’s kinda the point–in regards to such thing, claims are very rarely consistent. Perspective is relative. I honestly don’t give a flying fuck if my ancestors 100,000 years ago dealt with massive wounds and gangrene, or if African children are starving to death. To quote Tim Minchin, “Fuck the poor / I’m not pretending any more / that I really give two shits about / some kids in bangalore” (great song, by the way). And if you honestly look at yourself, you don’t either, or at least your actions don’t match your beliefs in the slightest. But it makes a wonderful way to discredit the movement, doesn’t it?
What? We have around 9% unemployment, ignoring the people who have been unemployed for so long that they no longer get benefits. Believe it or not, there aren’t as many jobs to go around as you think. From what I have heard, most of the jobs that don’t have a few hundred applicants require specific job experience that, as a college student, you probably won’t have.
Furthermore, you know what’s special about the illegal immigrant jobs? They generally don’t pay minimum wage, because they aren’t exactly legal.
Actually, I disagree. Sometimes it is possible to change things. When the system is so skewed like it is right now, it may not be possible to make it 100% fair, but we can damn well improve on it! Like, for example, by reinstating laws against things like inflating markets for actual, physical goods (like what happened in oil back in IIRC '04?), raising taxes, removing the massive amounts of corporate money from politics, and adding more protection against banks gambling recklessly with the money entrusted to them in savings accounts.
This is not rocket science. When it’s this fucking simple to fix so many of the problems, and nobody is moving because the financial sector is among the top 3 donors for basically every politician’s campaign, then I think that we, the actual people, have a right to protest and make our voices heard. We may not have it as bad as some prole in industrial England or some farmer in the dark ages, but that doesn’t mean we can’t try to improve things, not just for ourselves, but for everyone.
Seeing as the administrations most important proposals were watered down beyond where they should’ve been (the stimulus package–actually, no, just call it what it is: The Jobs Bill), haven’t been implemented yet (Obamacare), or don’t really look like they will ever be implemented for some stupid reason (Dodd-Frank), and now we have basically the king of the cockblockers running half of congress… Yeaaaah…
Um… excuse me, but what the fuck do you think these people are trying to do? Drop America into anarchy and civil war? Torch Wall Street to the ground? No! They’re fighting for better legal representation in our democratic system than an absolute minority of big businessmen and bankers–a system which is failing miserably right now. They don’t want the Great American Bubble Machine to keep cranking out financial collapses and fucking them over because they don’t have a PhD in the fucking stock market. They want the system to be just a little less broken. And now you’re saying they’re not trying to improve their situation, they’re just whining?
Have you ever lived on minimum wage? Like, no savings, very few possessions, just one or two shitty, minimum-wage jobs and a crappy little apartment? Just wondering.
Yeah, jobs is kinda a big part of the movement. Ignoring it would be ridiculous–after all, part of the reason these guys are protesting is because they want to make their unemployment worth something, rather than, say, sitting around all day doing nothing like a lot of un/underemployed people do.
Like there was all that much in that post, let alone a refutation of anything I said.
I’m still waiting for a cite demonstrating that I’ve ever wasted my time following you around on this board.
(Hell, I’m also still waiting for a cite that the actions of Barney and Fannie and Freddie had any of the effects you allege, but we’ll leave that for another post.)
In 12+ years here, I have frequently crossed paths with certain people often that I disagree with (Lib, Sam Stone, probably you) but never wasted time following anyone around. I see a topic that interests me, I click on it. I don’t know who’s there until I get there. If it happens to be you, then apparently it sucks to be you, since my alleged following-around upsets you - enough, according to you, to seek out a meeting with a person you actively dislike, so I’d say that’s indicative of a pretty high level of ‘sucks to be you.’
Speaking of which, while my time may or may not have value to others, my free time is an extremely scarce asset these days, and has high value to me. You’re asking me to give up some of this scarce resource in order to do something that’s totally unnecessary, and would likely be unpleasant - IOW, I would derive negative value in exchange for my using up some of a valuable asset.
You, OTOH, actively desire a meeting with me, someone you actively dislike (which is fine by me, not everyone likes me), so (a) such a meeting would have high value to you, but obviously the point is that (b) you’d derive that value by making the experience as unpleasant for me as you could manage. (Why else would you seek out someone you can’t stand?)
That’s all well and good. But you’re asking me to give up something of high value to me, add an experience of anticipated high negative value to my life, and give you something that you seem to value a great deal - all for free.
That is not an equitable exchange. Quite a long way from it, really.
I would think, Mr. Astute Investor, that you of all people would understand that turning down a sucky deal is wisdom, not cowardice.
If you think otherwise, feel free to sweeten the pot with a few thousand dollars. I’ll be happy to let you get in my face for a few hours if the price is right.
Next topic: trolling.
It’s possible you sincerely believe I’m trolling. If so, I should point out that you have been positively relentless in what you therefore believe to be your feeding of a troll.
Hell, in your over-the-top response to my throwaway line about your likely attitude towards Ritholtz, you were sticking a big “TROLL ME” sign on your back, first with Scotch tape, then reinforcing it with duct tape.
If I’m really a troll, you’re throwing the game to me. If I’m not, but you believe I am, then you’re losing to your own self, you sad, pathetic fuck.
And of course, if you don’t really believe I’m a troll, but just claim I am (which would be the most rational possibility, given your continual response to me), then you are…what was it?..oh yes, a lying fuck. That’s right. A lying fuck.
But at least if you’re just a lying fuck, you haven’t totally gone off the rails; you’re just pretending to have done so.
I’m still trying to find a good formulation for “put your money where your mouth is” in regards to that “other people have had it worse” philosophy that would involve Scylla either being a hypocrite or sending me a few hundred bucks. Which is a shame, because boy could I use the money.
But, by popular demand, I respond (I’ve been busy the past coupla days, get a life, OK?):
Seems to me you’re too dumb to notice that the comment wasn’t about the cite, but rather about someone else.
Some individual investors do quite well - that’s the key. Some people who play the ponies can make money at that, too. But on the whole, being an individual investor and picking your own stocks is a program for losing money. That’s been established by study after study.
And putting one’s money in a fund that has outperformed the market? Ditto. Turns out that warning about past performance is justified - the fund that’s been outperforming the market for 10 straight years is as likely as not to underperform in year 11.
I don’t think you have a better answer than index funds for someone who wants to park their money somewhere but has no idea what questions to ask about picking his own investments, and no idea what tools are available to answer them, or how to use them, if he did.
I think you’re projecting your own motivations here. I don’t come here to act big; I come here because I like debating issues. It helps me figure out whether my own ideas about things are any good, or whether someone’s got a better argument than I do. Unlike you, I don’t come here to swing my dick around. I’m not that sort of person online or IRL.
You are, and I’m perfectly happy to concede the SDMB Dick-Swinging Championship to you. It’s yours, unless someone else wants to fight you for it, which I doubt. Be happy.
Hijacking a plane would also get media coverage. So would burning down a school.
I am uncomfortable because this is the same methodology as terrorism (please note I’m not calling Occupy terrorists.)
Causing problems for other people on purpose is not a valid way to get your message out.
How about throwing private property off of ships?
Terrorists also issue press releases. I take it that you are uncomfortable with press releases because that is a method used by terrorists.
What it comes down to is that you are an ass who uses hyperbole and false association to muddy the waters.
I’m done with debating you in this thread.
I know that won’t exactly break your heart, but I generally am willing to debate even people like Shodan and Clothahump and Starving Artist who almost never have a decent argument to make, so I figure a word is warranted.
All you’re about is assertions, and not about evidence or even decent argument.
You’re the guy in the bar who thinks he can win arguments by shouting his opinion louder.
You’re the only one in a dick-swinging contest here. The rest of us are having a debate.
The only thing you’ve provided a decent argument for is some stuff about investment strategies, and that has fuck-all to do with this thread; it was a digression from a digression.
So have fun with the others. I’m done with you.
Maybe it’s because the message doesn’t stand on its own.
This is kind of my point. The single mother working for minimum wage to feed her child can’t afford to spend a month camping out in a park. In order to be able to do this, to be part of occupy you necessarily have to have sufficient means and freedom from responsibility to have living in a park for a month as an option.
I’ve seen the films. There’s a lot of college kids, or just past college at these things. That’s the majority in fact. These are not people that have legitimate complaints. Just to be there demonstrates that they are exceedingly privileged.
If your a bank than my savings would be FDIC Insured and I wouldn’t lose them. But no, I don’t complain. Certainly not by camping out in the street. I have a family to take care of.
I am reasonably sure that it isn’t relative at all. If I buy into your argument than the princess in the Princess and the Pea suffers as much as an orphan freezing in the snow.
That’s just a bunch of bullshit. So, no I am not impressed by the “relative” suffering of the occupiers.
Crap. There are lots of jobs available around where I live. But, if you are a college student, or recent graduate you don’t want to be a stock boy, or wait tables.
I have a nephew in law who spent a year interviewing for jobs as a systems analyst, and kept complaining about how terrible the job market was, and how he couldn’t get a break. Finally he took a job, basically as a data entry temp, found a place liked him, and his working his way up. He wasted a year though, living in his parents basement.
There is a difference between not being able to find a job, and not being able to find the job you want.
My company is hiring. I am consistently surprised by the look of dismay on college students faces as we describe the opening positions and the hours, and the work involved, and how often they decide to just keep looking rather than take our 50k. Sometimes they come back a few months later, but frankly we don’t want somebody that does this.
And again, if unemployment pays you X dollars and the job you are lookingat pays you X + 2 an hour, than yo would be working for $2 an hour which really doesn’t make sense, does it? I wouldn’t take such a job. There’s a bit of this going on.
Yeah.
Tell me about these laws against inflating markets. How would that work? How would you do that?
I do like the idea of removing corporate money from politics, but I don’t really favor higher taxes. I think the government gets more than enough money to do what it needs to do. It is just wasteful and innefficient. I do think you could remove sales taxes which punish the poor and make the tax code a bit more progressive, so I’m ok there.
As for the gambling, I don’t think that’s really the problem. Too big to fail is the problem. Banks should fail. They should make mistakes, and pay for it. This helps keep the system honest. The problem is when a bank is too big to fail, and the public has to assume the burden of sustaining the bank. I’m all in favor of breaking the banks up to prevent moral hazard in the future. But, let them gamble, if they are so foolish.
I don’t think think things are as simple to fix as you think they are. I don’t like the idea that you think you can fix things for “everyone.” I don’t think this movement speaks for everyone. Outside of liberal message boards I think the more common view is that the occupiers are a bunch of spoiled brats.
Oh come on. For two years Obama controlled the executive branch and both houses.
If we are going to blame the Republicans than you are going to have to argue that the Democrats are horribly incompetant and the Republicans are like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae.
[quote]
Um… excuse me, but what the fuck do you think these people are trying to do? Drop America into anarchy and civil war? Torch Wall Street to the ground? No! They’re fighting for better legal representation in our democratic system than an absolute minority of big businessmen and bankers–a system which is failing miserably right now. They don’t want the Great American Bubble Machine to keep cranking out financial collapses and fucking them over because they don’t have a PhD in the fucking stock market. They want the system to be just a little less broken. And now you’re saying they’re not trying to improve their situation, they’re just whining?
[quote]
Yes.
I saw it on the news and I can’t link to it, or find it, and it wasn’t Fox , but the story was about Oakland and the bad effects that the Occupy thing was having on some of the already struggling businesses, and that the disruptions of occupy basically put the kibosh on several businesses that shut down losing 500 jobs.
They interviewed some Occupy people about it, and the response was that those businesses were part of the system that they were against.
I found that telling. I don’t think they are really trying to improve the system. I think they are trying to tear it down. I think there’s a lot of college students that would really rather not have to pay off their student loans.
I bar-backed for minimum wage, and bar tended for tips for a summer in New Orleans during college. It was fucking great. I was young, single, basically I had to pay the rent and the rest was beer money. To save on food I bought a 50 pound bag of red beans for $20. The plan was I just boil beans every day and save money for beer and fun and cigarettes.
Guess what happens when you consume nothing but beer, beans, and cigarettes for a week?
It was great. Of course, I only had to support myself. But, I guess that’s the point.
Then I worked as a cold caller for Lehman Bros in NYC for minimum wage. That’s tough to live in NYC. I shared an apartment and it sucked, but it was cool, too. After a year I got a raise $1.50 over minumum wage. Shortly after that I was able to convince them to give me a job as a runner on the trading floor for 18k year. Than I became an assistant trader, than a trader.
The funny thing is anybody I mean anybody who could dial a phone and talk could get that cold-calling job at Lehman. They turned nobody down. I still remember the cold calling script everybody had to use. It fucking sucked. It was soul-killing. A lot of people would not take the job, and a lot of those that did would just quit, sometimes halfway through their first day. Sometimes they just wouldn’t come back.
It took a long time, but it led me somewhere.
So, according to the Scylla Principle of Perfect Innocence, no such political action can proceed unless it can be proven to be utterly harmless, that no unfortunate consequences are possible? There would have been no American Revolution. No Civil Rights Movement. No labor movement. Hell, I might still be attending anti-Vietnam War functions, for all we know. Quiet, polite get togethers over tea.
People’s lives have been ruined, Scylla! What part of that are you having trouble grasping? I actually know some of these people, do you? People who worked, saved, sacrificed for a modest but secure retirement now have neither. And the money went from their pockets into the pockets of people very much like yourself, the money went to assure that people who were already comfortable are even more comfortable, some of them filthy comfortable.
You say you knew nothing about it. OK, i’ll buy that. All of this was going on, this massive clusterfuck a brewing, and you heard nothing? Despite all your vaunted education and experience, which you are perfectly willing to beat us over the head with, and you knew nothing about it?
Then tell me: why we should trust your advice and counsel? All that education and experience, and you didn’t even suspect? The most massive financial clusterfuck since the Depression, and you didn’t have a clue? You didn’t know anything more than us poor dumb shmucks then, but now you’re smarter? Now you know all about it, and we should listen to you?
Do you see the disconnect, there?
That accounts for a lot.