I work for County Government. IS department. More specifically GIS. Geographic Information Systems (we make maps, do spatial analysis). We are a department of 4 within a total of 16.
In the past, two people from GIS where sent to the BIG GIS conference (it’s mostly technical workshops) in San Diego. We would rotate turns. Now, with budgets the way they are, no out of state training conferences are paid for (some exceptions are made I’m sure).
Two guys I work with want to go. They are going to pay their own way. It will not be cheap for airfare and a week in San Diego. They will learn a lot. GIS is exploding and has been for years. They want to learn to do their jobs better.
My boss will probably make them take vacation time to do this. Or un-paid time off. In the past, like any conference, you would get your regular daily wage and per diam.
Remember, this is a conference/work/technical session that they will bring a LOT back from.
The twist –
They have their own little GIS business. They have all their own equipment and it does not interfere with their regular job with the County. It is fully sanctioned by my bosses-bosses boss and his bosses boss but seems to be a thorn in the side for my boss.
I’m sort of an indirect supervisor of these guys. They do not bring their little business to work.
I’m of two minds here.
On the one hand –
If the County would pay for their time, if they had problems in San Diego, workman’s comp may be an issue? It could get complicated I suppose.
On the other hand –
The only reason that the County isn’t sending them is budget (we always went in the past). Since they are paying their own way completely they shouldn’t have to use vacation time to do it.
Also, we can’t discount that they will be bringing back knowledge that will help the County. And if they didn’t go, they would have been paid their regular wage anyway.
Since this is directly related to both their employed position, and their side business, it should be a tax-deductible professional education expense for them.
Not sure what the scope of “indirect supervisor” authority may be. Either you have the authority to approve administrative leave, or you don’t. If you do, use it, problem solved. If you don’t, have them fill out whatever form is needed to request such, and write up a recommendation that it be approved for forwarding to whoever handles that sort of thing. Sounds like there’s not much else you can do.
But as everyone benefits, I think it’s small minded of our boss to not allow them their regular wages while they are at the conference. Remember, a few years ago, they would have been pushed out the door to go to the conference. All expenses paid. WE NEED to go to these.
This is County Government. It’s not coming out of our ‘bosses’ pocket. I think that the knowledge that they would gain would benefit the people of this county. I’m sure of it.
Zero.
But when our boss is away, I’m “in charge”. It’s very laid back here. We do our jobs. If my boss died or something, his boss would call me or send an email.
I don’t think there is a formal policy on that.
There are about 500 people in the County GOV. And its top heavy as it is. I do not want to be a supervisor.
This is new territory re: requests for leave. They want to go to a work conference that would normally be paid for. But they will spend their own money to do it. I think that since they are spending their own money on travel and hotel, they should not have to use vacation time.
When I worked for municipal government, time at conferences was paid only if the Board authorized the travel. Would that answer your dilemma? Is the travel authorized?
Keeping in mind your semi-supervisory position, my recommendation would be 1) See if there is a policy. In government, there might well be. It might be called “release time” or “management-directed time off.” Yes, it might get complicated if they are god forbid in an accident. 2) If there’s no policy, make a recommendation to management based on what is in the best interest of the county. Keep in mind that in government “appearance of impropriety” is a legitimate concern. 3) Before the conference, make sure everyone is on the same page about what is paid, what is not paid, whether the employees put the county on their conference name badges, whether Worker’s Comp applies, whether the employees check email and voicemail while they’re gone (if that’s something they’d normally do while at a conference for work), and expectations for sharing information with the rest of the office.
Travel is not the point as they would be paying for their own travel out of their own pockets.
It’s not a dilemma for me. It just pisses me of because I think so called management is not looking at the big picture.
I believe I should take this in up with the Personnel Board.
If attendance to a previously sanctioned and approved training or conference is denied because of existing budget conditions, those that wish to finance their own attendance should be allowed to attend.
With a supervisors approval, those that wish to attend should be allowed to use standard work hours to attend the conference.
First, if you are not a direct supervisor or someone with the ability to make a decision, you should probably stay out of it when it comes to ‘bringing it up’ to someone or getting your bosses to ‘see the big picture.’ THat doesn’t mean, however, that you can’t solicit information from folks here and pass it along to the guys that want to go, so that they can make their own appeal to TPTB.
Were I one of these guys, I would present the following proposal: that in exchange for not having to use my vacation time, I would 1) pay for my own travel, expenses, etc., 2) would be accessible during certain working hours via email/phone, and 3) would bring back all knowledge obtained during the conference and share it with my coworkers. If they say no, then (even though I agree with you) that’s that. But they’d better be prepared for TPTB to not quite ‘get it,’ mostly from a liability standpoint.
They would be completely accessible day or night. Hell, they call me when I’m out of town. We are a small group, that’s what we do. It’s understood (and very, very rarely needed. I am the only guy in the group that has ever been called when not at work. It’s happend 4 times in 17 years)
I worded that poorly. I meant, if the time taken to attend the class could be authorized by the board, then they could be paid for it no problem.
Asking the Personnel folks is probably a good idea. There may be some rules or laws or other red tape involving how to pay salary while a person does something like this. I think that, since it’s government, there is always a chance that, budget-wise, a supervisor may not have authority to sign off on things like this. Example: my hubby needs to go to a certification class. His boss can’t sign off on hubby going to the class; he needs authorization from higher ups to do that.
Also, there may already be provisions for this sort of thing. One of the union contracts for state workers here provides for “professional leave”. This leave is for training that is neither mandated not paid for by the state agency, and is in addition to annual and personal leave. You are on leave, so worker’s comp and timesheets aren’t an issue, but no time is deducted from your own leave balances.
I’m not going to insert myself into this situation. As I am not really their supervisor. I may make recommendations to them though as I am their friend. I sometimes get treated like their supervisor since I have seniority.
It’s not really that big of a deal anyway, I was just wondering where the SDMB would come down on this.
My thoughts –
In a better economy, the county would be paying for the entire conference, including air fare, hotel, per diem, and paying their daily wage. We use to HAVE to go to this conference. That’s how important they are.
These fellows are going to pay their own way. I think that it is short sited of TPTB to not pay their daily wage. Making them use vacation or unpaid leave for something that would regularly be paid for seems a bit mean spirited.
It’s a sort of weird management structure here. I suspect that my bosses boss would approve this without a second glance for his team. There are a LOT of double standards going on here.
We are a team! Two people must always be in the office at all times! (unless my boss decides to golf). Or we have a meeting and just lock the doors. It’s weird and really passive aggressive if not down right manic/depressive.
Doreen – Professional leave…… That’s an interesting concept. I’ll tell my guys to look into it.
IANAL, etc., but in most states, yes, they’d be eligible for workers’ compensation if they were somehow injured while being paid for their time.
I don’t see why that would be a problem for you, though; their work comp claims would be handled by your regular WC carrier (or the county’s risk management department, if they’re self insured) just as if they were injured while working in the office.
If they are paying their own way, they’re not eligible for workers’ compensation. Employees are only eligible for WC if injured while traveling if the travel is part of the course and scope of their employment (say, a salesperson who regularly visits large accounts, or a plumber driving to a job site). As long as they’re not being told to go by the county, it shouldn’t be an issue.
Hubby has worked for the City here for 28 years. He will be the first one to tell you that common sense doesn’t necessarily apply to the rules and regulations of government employment.
