Suspenderzzz, I invite you to do the work I do, just for a day.
In the meantime, you’re cordially invited to bite me.
SpoilerVirgin and Jodi, you make some interesting points. I do agree with some of what you say, but I still stand by my old argument that to expand the meaning of the word hero to practically include every lowly creature that makes a living is ridiculous. Yes, Jodi, the language has changed to expand the meaning of those words. That is the whole point of my argument. And, no, I don’t like it.
I have to leave in a few minutes, and I won’t be back til Monday. Then I will respond to you in greater detail. I can’t believe what a firestorm this mundane topic has created, and I wish I could stay around, but, you see, I’m posting from work and I don’t have a computer at home. I guess nowadays that fact alone would qualify me as one of those struggling, surviving heroes. (Don’t ever call me that, if you know what’s good for you.)
Meanwhile, let me reiterate my original point with another example. Some time ago, there was a letter in my local newspaper about how we elevate sports figures and Hollywood stars to hero status. Agreed. Then the letter writer lost me by saying: “Aren’t the real heroes the single mother who works three jobs, the cab driver who gets you home safely, the social worker who takes care of the less fortunate. All the unstrung workers who go to work everyday to support themselves and their families are the true heroes”. (That was obviously before 9/11, when the firemen got included into the parade of heroes, but at least in the firemen’s case, I can understand it, as stated above.)
Now, a letter like that puts into a nutshell how today’s world has come to condescend to the “little people”. I like my job and my life, and I find it unspeakably insulting when people try to present me as some kind of martyr. (I don’t mean ME in the literal sense, just speaking for the general working class population here.)
Now, some of the “little” people get off on this sort of thing, and even perpetuate it themselves, exchanging tales of woe about how hard their lives are, but secretly enjoying their martyrdom. They make it sound as if they are talking for all regular working people. They are not speaking for me. A letter like the one I paraphrazed above would not have been even thought up just a few years ago. Yes, Jodi, definitions change over time, but are you saying that we must accept this unquesioningly and go along with it to the bitter end? That is quite a sheep-like atttitude. Change is not always for the better.
In older TV shows, for instance, I’ve noticed that although there are many single parents present, the term “single parent” or “single mother” was never used. The reason is obvious. The expression had not been invented yet! As a result, those single parents (on the shows and in real life) were not treated as some special, heroic species, they just…WERE. Never was there any reference made to their status as “single parents” with all its “woe is me” implications, let alone as them being particularly heroic. That left them on even footing with everyone else.
I think the world was a lot more open-minded 10, 20, 30 years ago. Political correctness has made heroes, victims, survivers, strugglers, inspirations out of virtually all people, especially those on the lower half of the economical landscape. Hardly anyone is spared. No one does their job out of enjoyment and fulfillment and pleasure anymore. Eveyone is just trying to…survive. Or so it would seem. Again, I ask: Do we have to go along with this insulting bullshit to the bitter end?
I meant “unsung”, not “unstrung”. Jeez, I’m turning into Archie Bunker. I’m going home. More on Monday.
A large number of them–I’m going to be rash, here, and say the vast majority–suffer from horrible psychological consequences. They can die because of it. They can live shit lives because of it. Some of them, don’t. They have to carry the pain with them every day, but they learn to function, and, eventually, to let go. That’s what makes them survivors–they had to work to have a semblance of a normal life.
Yes, I’ll admit, there are times I hear the term “survivor” or “hero” used, and I just want to roll my eyes. I just don’t agree with the examples you used.
First of all, there is more to acheive in life than employment and financial wealth. Second of all, if they’re doing this to support someone else, it is heroic. Maybe they could ditch the other person and better themselves…but that would be on some level extremely cowardly and selfish. Working to support the other, helpless person is admirable.
I think maybe someone has to work through his class issues here…it seems as though you have no respect for anyone who doesn’t put the highest value on money or glory. I hope that’s not the case; if it were, you’d be in for a rather callous and empty lifetime.
Y’know, Suspenderzzz, except for the references to your kid and to stuff that happened on TV thirty years ago, you sound a whole heck of a lot like one of those 17-year-old kids who believe that they’ve got it All Figured Out (and Why Won’t These Ungrateful People Listen To My Wisdom?).
Ah, ye dear wee one. This is not a firestorm. This is hardly a lit match by Pit standards. Just FYI.
Have no fear.
And while you’re thinking things through over the weekend, you might give some thought to the following:
(A) Just because not everyone who is labelled a hero deserves the title, that doesn’t mean that no one who is so labelled deserves it. It is therefore indefensible for you to declare that entire classes of people simply cannot be heroic in their daily lives. And it is beyond indefensible to downright offensive for you to state that every person working a minimum wage job is a “loser.”
(B) “Martyr” and “hero” are not synonyms, and you should not use them as if they are.
Okay. Angel, you appear to have some personal interest in the topic of incest. I do not want this to turn into a discussion about incest. I’ve told you it was an imperfect example, and you are probably right about what you say about it. I’ll take your word for it.
Anyway, it is a nice concept that a person’s achievements should be measured by more than income and employment status. I couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately, in the real world, that is what people will judge you by. I was raised to believe that in order to be a dignified adult, you will have to have at least a halfway decent job, and be independent, meaning not depending on someone else to pool your income with in order to survive. You should also not have to work yourself to death. While I rebelled against this upbringing for a while as a normal part of growing up, now, that I am an adult, I couldn’t agree with it more.
Cervaise, yes I do have a lot of things figured out. I think a lot about a whole lot of subjects, beyond the point that most people think about them. If my views were to be as easily dismissed as you make it sound, how come so many people get bent out of shape over them? They could just shrug me off as some fringe nut case and go about their lifes, correct? If this is the best rebuttal you can come up with to my most recent, lenghty, well-thought-out post from late Friday, I must be on to something. Something that you may sense has at the very least a kernel of truth – truth that you don’t want to hear. Good for me.
I am not out to yank chains for sport. This is a subject that really bothers me, has bothered me for a long time, and I have had many arguments about it. I have a host of other topics like that, btw. But let’s take them one at a time.
Jodi, in your example about the Cambodian refugee who does shitwork for a while in order to become a doctor, I would say that he is an ambitious guy. That’s what it used to be. We used to say, “This person has ambition”. Not, “this person is a struggling hero.” Which one do you think sounds more dignified and enviable? Anyway, that refugee example is not really the type of person I’m talking about. I’m not necesarily talking about new immigrants who work their ass off for a while (temporarily) and, because immigrants are so ambitious, before long will be in a better place in life. He is ambitious. He is not a hero. Okay?
And does anyone agree with the view that everyday workers (except for those who risk life and limb) are heroes, just because the make a living? Making a living is something that should be taken for granted. That’s what the whole economy is built on. I still stand by my original assertion, that, if we must call working people heroes, the guy who operates on people’s vital organs is more of a hero than the guy who pushes a broom. Any other view is just mushy, Oprah/Hallmark/politically correct bullshit.
Fianally, the way we have come to single out single parents and call them heroes and survivors is ludicrous. You are not speaking for me and my friends who have chosen the same lifestyle. We have made a choice and are enjoying ourselves. Those who became that way against their will? They are still not heroes. They are just taking care of business, doing a job, living their lives. And they are not survivors. They are not in danger of dying (in the literal sense!) as a result of being a single parent.
Some of you have hammered me for pointing out that our society was much more laissez-fare and open-minded about all these things a couple of decades ago. Issues that are now big issues were not even referenced back then. I stand by my view that, while many things have changed for the better over time – don’t get me wrong – we are becoming more closed-minded again about how we view certain social issues. And our language reflects it.
On any other message board, this puts you in the ruling elite. Here on the SDMB, you’re firmly in the middle of the pack. Get over it.
Because they’re kind of dopey?
“And they laughed at Einstein!”
Listen: You started off with a pretty good point – people don’t think about the deeper semantic implications of catchall labels – but then you dragged it kicking and screaming into CrackPotVille. Your sloppy application of the term “loser,” for example, negates almost the entire value of your argument.
So I’m perfectly comfortable saying: Dude, whatever.
“the view that everyday workers (except for those who risk life and limb) are heroes, just because the make a living? Making a living is something that should be taken for granted. That’s what the whole economy is built on. I still stand by my original assertion, that, if we must call working people heroes, the guy who operates on people’s vital organs is more of a hero than the guy who pushes a broom.”
By your own definition the doctor you keep talking about is not a hero. He’s not risking life and limb, he’s doing a job.
At any rate, in the real world, people are judged by more than their income and employment status. Maybe that’s all you judge people by but the vast majority take far more into account.
Oh, and
“If my views were to be as easily dismissed as you make it sound, how come so many people get bent out of shape over them? They could just shrug me off as some fringe nut case and go about their lifes, correct?”
?
I am now shrugging you off as a fringe nut case and going about my life. Ta - ta!
I survived a hero once.
Someone accidentally put spicy jalapeno wedges on it, and I bit into it unknowingly. I was totally unprepared.
Tripler
Putting my life at risk every day at lunchtime.
Best that life dealt them? I certainly don’t agree with slchups (or however you spell the OP’s name) point, but I don’t agree with this point either.
Settling for “what life delt you” is pathetic. (I know that you mean that they went beyond what was dealt them, I just have to say something about this point).
Taking sacrafices for your kids so that they can be “handed” better opportunities is heroic IMO. I question the term handed though, or settled, because nobody is handed anything, or delt a specific deck of cards. We make our life what we are, if somebody has kids before they achieve their dreams, that is a choice they made. It is all choices. People settling for what they were handed are losers if you ask me. The heroes are the ones that throw away tripe like “the deck of cards I was handed” and create their own destiny. Or take the bullet in the arse and work as hard as they can at creating better opportunities so that their kids may have more choices to make. (which is not settling for what they were handed)
All right, people, have it your way.
Since you all are defending that hero and surviver bullshit so much that gets applied to everything these days, I will now humbly and blushingly accept the title of Everyday Hero because I sit at my desk every day for 7 hours, Raise my son BY MYSELF, courageously, work not for pleasure but to Make Ends Meet, am to be Admired for Doing What I’m Doing (?), a True Inspiration, a <swelling violin strings> Survivor (do I hear sobbing in the back?), oh God, I am so Brave, I schlepp to work every day, not because I like my job, but To Support Myself And My Son. I am Hero, Inspiration, COURAGEOUS SINGLE MOTHER, and People Admire Me, and I Take That As A Compliment, and I don’t understand how anyone could take this as an insult.
This above paragraph is a load of bullshit, of course. The truly scary part is that too many people would take this bullshit seriously and find it an Inspiration. Go have a group hug or something.
You people just want to attack me, but you are not addressing many of the specific points I have raised. I take that as a victory. I’m getting bored with this topic. Unless someone posts something here that is different and refreshing (not necessarily in agreement with me, but at least taking on points I have made and argue them, i.e., why do we call a Single Mother a hero and a surviver, and treat her as some kind of fucking SAINT whereas in the 70’s we either ignored her altogether, treating her just like any other person, or, better even, regarded her as a THREAT to the status quo, a force to be reckoned with, whereas nowadays we have merely attached some condescending adjectives to her?
Is this PROGRESS??? Btw, substiute single mother for any regular working Joe Blow or whatever. I’m just using that as an example.
Now, this is getting a little off the subject, but not completely. How come more and more women nowadays seem to work only to Help Support Their Families? They don’t do it out of enjoyment or out of rebellion. They think God will punish them if they admit that they actually enjoy it. They say things like “she CAN afford to stay home”, as if, once again, that is the natural first choice. We are going backwards. Does anyone even give a rat’s ass? Working women used to be considered a threat; now they have become objects of pity and condescendion – strugglers, survivors, heros, inspirations.
Again, I ask: IS THIS PROGRESS???
Epimethes, you posted while I was posting. I somewhat agree with you, but not about the part that implies sacrifice is good. Life is too short. We should all enjoy ourselves instead of treat life as this horrible thing to be struggled through.
The fact that you feel that way about sacrafice is what separates you from the heroes. You take the easy route, so you can go home and vegetate in front of the TV, have your picnics, and bitch and moan about those that work hard to achieve something other than stumbling around in life accepting what is put in front of us by sheer chance. Life is so short, enjoy it, have your fun, don’t make sacrafices, and most importantly, don’t hold a dream and try like hell to achieve it. It is so PC and yucky.
Who says struggle is horrible? The struggle and conflicts that we overcome is what builds our character, it is what allows for beauty and compassion. Without struggle our “souls” as so many would say atrophy.
You can have your characterless, pointless life of pleasure, just do it not worrying about those that are doing great and inspirational things. Go to hell IOW.
Where are all these dipshits coming from all of a sudden? I don’t think I have read a more offensive or less considered OP in a looooong time.
**
I don’t know how different or refreshing this will strike anyone, but the use of “we” annoys the hell out of me. I, personally, didn’t treat single mothers like anything in the seventies, because I wasn’t born. I rarely describe anyone as a hero. This “we” doesn’t include me. Who does it include? People posting to a message board? Lazy journalists writing human-interest stories? Blind epic poets?
It’s that damned thing called reality.
Honey britches, looks like you’re so busy patting yourself on the back for being so much smarter and cooler than everyone else, you’ve clearly decided to forego any skills at, well, reading comprehension.
What say you get off that lil’ pony you’re on and try to actually understand what people are saying to you, huh?
andros – I may come across as an asshole to some, but I’m just as ready to admit when I’m wrong. Yes, a lot of you so far have actually agreed that the words such as hero, survivor and similar words are way overused. I actually thought about posting a follow-up post acknowledging this, following the post from which you quote. But I figured it wasn’t worth the trouble. My mistake.
Maybe the reason this is so easy to overlook is the fact that, although some people somewhat agree with the points I’m trying to make, they do so in a half-assed way. Usually it’s just one sentence of, “yeah, you’re right, these words are overused” followed by three “…BUT”- paragraphs, detailing while, in your opinion I am wrong. It’s like some of you are using the old communication technique of: find something, ANYTHING, to agree with when a person is way off the wall – then they are more willing to listen to your viewpoint." I feel that most of the “yes, I agree with you that these words are used in cases where they shouldn’t be, BUT…” comments fall into this category. Maybe that’s just my impression. I hope so.
If I may be so brazen and immodest as to quote myself: I would like some opinions on the above. Doesn’t anyone besides me notice these things, and consider them a problem, a threat to how far women have come? (And please no vague “well, times have changed – it’s harder now” responses. It’s not harder now. We, as a society, have just become more dramatic and mushy.)
I would like some concrete opinions about this, pro and con. For example, have others noticed the phenomenon described in the quote? How do you feel about it?
I’m not entirely sure what you are talking about. Are you saying that it’s rather condesending to call these women heroes because it’s not heroic when men have children and work? Or are you saying it’s alarming that society no longer sees these women as brazen hussies and second-class citizens?