Which is the best?
Which is the worst?
Should any be redone completely?
–everybody has to answer–
I expect this to be a really long thread. Make me proud you teeming millions!!
I’ll go first
Empire–for reasons mentioned in “Clerks”
TPM–I think you know what i mean
TPM–nuff said
Shouldn’t this be in Cafe Society?
Best - Return of the Jedi
Worst - Phantom Menace
Redone - Phantom Menace
Best:
The Empire Strikes Back
Worst:
Return of the Jedi
Redone:
Return of the Jedi
[sub]bloody Ewoks were nothing more than animated teddy bears[/sub]
And I’ll add a special bonus category…which Star Wars movie is in the most dire need of a new name?
Renaming:
Attack of the Clones
Of course, “worst” is a relative term here. I still think that flaws and all, Return of the Jedi is still better than quite a few other science fiction movies.
Atreyu is close to my opinion, but I think TPM could most profit from a redo.
B/c the flaws are more obvious, and while superficial, more glaring (Jar Jar, Jake Lloyd, midichlorians vs. Ewoks and a slightly sudden redemption). Besides everyone hates TPM anyway and won’t begrudge Lucas a mulligan as much as they would if he tried to fix RoJ, which is more fixed in the popular conciousness).
Empire
Phantom Menace
Return of the Jedi
I would love to see Return of the Jedi redone (as Revenge of the Jedi?) as originally conceived, on Kashhyyyk, with the support of the Wookies. As long as they weren’t sucky Wookies, like in the holiday special.
I like Empire Strikes Back for the downer ending.
So far Phantom Menace is the worst.
Best: The Empire Strikes Back. I think it stayed truest to the characters… Vader was evil, sinister, ominous, and powerful, Luke was idealistic, full of potential, but still incredibly green, Han was a rogue, but with a slight piece of honor, Leia had a hard exterior protecting a soft interior… Threepio was whiny, prissy, and… well… gay. In short, it portrayed the characters in their most three-dimensional. Further, it showed the true might of the Galactic Empire, and the “feel” for the galacy, that the others just couldn’t pull off. And it had Boba Fett.
Worst: The Phantom Menace. What was once a franchise filled with action, intriguing storylines, and mysticism, suddenly became a glorified cartoon that emulated Star Trek. What was once a powerful, mystical energy field (the Force) suddenly became a parasitic infestation. So many plot elements seemed so contrived, as if the only reason things happened was because the script said so. And Jake Lloyd’s acting was terrible… as was Natalie Portman’s, which is surprising, since we know that she can do better. Finally, so many elements of the movie - Jar Jar Binks, Threepio and R2-D2, Tattooine, Jabba the Hutt - were so blatantly gratuitous… I found myself thinking, “Jesus, George, is this the only way you could think of to tie this movie in with the other Star Wars flicks? Why not have Harrison Ford come in to play the part of Han Solo’s father?”
Needs to be redone: The Phantom menace. For all the reasons I mentioned above. Frankly, Jar Jar Binks needs to be toned down, they need to digitally insert the REAL Natalie Portman over that cardboard cutout of her, and they need to remove all mentions of C-3PO and R2-D2. And they need to add more lightsaber duels. In fact, it should be two hours straight of lightsaber dueling. The fight choreography for the Jedi battles was the film’s only redeeming value.
But, if only ONE thing were to be redone in the entiry 4-some, it’d have to be the removal of the Greedo Shoots First scene. That was the biggest hunk o’ crap I’d ever seen.
Well, I finally saw TPM when it was on TV the other night. Yeppers, it’s the worst of the lot so far. Though RoJ’s not too far behind.
Empire’s the best.
Problems with TPM: what everyone else has said, especially the irritating presence of Jar Jar, the gratuitous inclusion of R2D2, C3PO, Jabba, etc. from the original series, and the midichlorian stuff - such an obvious play on ‘mitochondria’, both in word and properties, that it irritated the hell out of me.
Also, the Zen-lite pop-theology of the Force really fell apart here IMO, partly for the reason Spoofe mentioned, but especially for the way the Jedi treated Anakin’s ‘fear’ issue. Gee, the kid’s concerned about the welfare of his mother; ain’t that a good thing? Can’t the Force help us transcend our inevitable fears? Nah, we just shouldn’t have any in the first place. Suuuuure.
I must admit I’m tired of the whole genetic role in Jedi knighthood from both RoJ and TPM. You’d think the notion of hereditary aristocracy would be a non-starter in this era, but for Lucas, it’s still alive and kicking, apparently. For my money, the best candidate for Jedi knighthood in all four movies is R2D2, who keeps his head in every emergency, most notably in Empire, where he saves the good guys’ asses at the end. Give him a light-saber, and he’d slice Darth Maul into Sith jerky, I betcha. 
OK this is a cafe debate but here goes
Empire (no debate I’m sure)
Phantom menace (Also probably no debate)
NONE! I can’t tell you how sick I was to watch George re-release the originals with glaring new effects that did nothing to the story except make Han look less of a cold blooded killer (See Greedo shot first). And Jabba more of a clown than threat (Forgives Han immediately instead of having him vaporised on the spot and lets Han step on his tail…)
I was so pissed at Lucas for making the money grab for no reason except to test out his new toys he was to use to make that Turd the Phantom Menace. Now he won’t release the originals on DVD for years and guess what they probably will not include the original thatrical release. You have no sense of honour for film history Lucas! You and Speilburg are revisionist weinies!
Now if you want to see how a re release should be done watch Apocalypse Now Redux. The new scenes add to the movie and give a new perspective to the characters and their motives. Plus Copala has the decency to rename it and package it as a differnet version, not as the official new version.
F You Lucas!
I’ll tell you why The Phantom Menace and the Return of the Jedi are, really, co-owners of the Worst Star Wars Movie Award:
Kids.
Let me ask you this; how many children do you see onscreen in either Star Wars or The Empire Strikes Back? None. Yet they play pivotal roles in the third and fourth films (let’s be honest, the Ewoks were just a huge bunch of kids, sort of a gigantic tribe of Kevins from “Home Alone.”)
Jake Lloyd’s not a good actor, it’s true, but the basic problem would be the same if he was Haley Joel Osment; his being a child just makes absolutely no sense at all. It makes his mother’s action nonsensical, makes the entire podrace AND final battle scene hard to swallow, makes the connections with Obi-Wan’s comments in “Star Wars” seem forced and silly, and makes the Anakin-Amidala romance seem illogical. So here’s a thought experiment; Take The Phantom Menace and leave everything as it is; Jar Jar, mitichlorians, the dumb final battle, everything. Change only one thing:
Make Anakin 16 years old, rather than 9.
Now replay the movie in your head. Doesn’t it ALL seem better now? The romance is no longer creepy; Anakin’s rebelliousness makes perfect sense now; the podrace and the final battle are all much easier to believe. His relationship with his mother makes more sense. It even works better in terms of creating an obvious comparison between the young, rebellious Anakin and the young, rebellious Luke. The entire movie would have been substantially better on every level if Anakin had been a teenager.
So why WASN’T he? It’s inconceivable that anyone could plan the story as we saw it and not think of Anakin as a 16-year-old, because it just makes sense; it’s the logical thing to do. So why wasn’t he a teenager?
Because, of course, they wanted to market to kids… except that you don’t need Jake Lloyd to market to kids. “Star Wars” had no kids, and no Jar Jar. The Empire Strikes Back was an all-adult cast, too. The only comic relief was in C3PO and R2D2, whose act was sort of an ironic play on Laurel and Hardy more than anything else; C3PO is kind of an existential worrywart, not a Disneyesque sidekick. Yet kids loved those movies.
Children are just smaller and less experienced adults; basically, they think and feel the same way grownups do, and they don’t like to be patronized and insulted any more than you or I. If you deliver an exciting story with slam-bang FX, kids will love it. You aren’t obligated to provide them with a cuddly toy at the same time. Kids love Harry Potter, but Harry Potter stories are sort of frightening and not really cuddly at all. The juvenilization of RotJ and TPM is wholly unnecessary and substantially distracts from the believability of the movie; the Ewoks and the 9-year-old Anakin defy any sort of internal logic, so they’re doomed from the start. And anyone can see it, no matter how old they are.
You are all brain dead.
The best is “Star Wars” New Hope or whatever you call it.(s the first one released).
Watch them again and you will see how it stands alone and is well paced. The Empire and Return are each about half as good.
Phantom is the worse but it is close to Return in its crapablity.
Rick - that was one of the best things about Star Wars that I’ve ever read.
I shall go forth and spread the word.
pan
I heard once that a tacit conceit behind the series was that it was (sort of) the tale of R2 and 3PO. Aside from Darth Vader (if you count his stint as Anakin) or Obi-Won (if you count his stint as a ghost), they should be the only characters present in all six movies (I’ve also heard that, as originally conceived, the story spanned 9 episodes, though 7-9 are unlikely ever to be made).
Oh, and I’ll cast another vote for:
– Empire Strikes Back
– Phantom Menace
– Phantom Menace
. . . not that I think TPM is a bad movie. Sans expectations, I think most people would have thought it was pretty good. Standing next to it’s predecessors, however, it looks like crap.
– Empire Strikes Back
– The Phantom Menace (with Return of the Jedi close on its heels)
– The Phantom Menace
Larry and Andy Wachowski should beat the shit out of George Lucas and take control of the series. I would LOVE to see what those two would do with the series!
Has anyone ever seen the internet version of TPM? Somebody edited themselves a copy of the movie. They completely edited out Jar Jar Binks and somehow did it so the movie makes sense. I have never been able to find a copy, but am fairly sure this is true. I have friends who have seen it, and I remember seeing people on the news talking about it.
What a great idea. Have directors release unedited movies and let amateurs re-edit them so that they no longer suck.
**Whack-a-Mole **
“Larry and Andy Wachowski should beat the shit out of George Lucas and take control of the series. I would LOVE to see what those two would do with the series!”
Um, Luke discovers that Vader wasn’t really his father, but a downloaded simulation used to distract him. While he worked out his Oedipal crisis, the AIs were busy sending Morpheus to the Desert of the Real (a/k/a the Empire), while replacing the Oracle with Princess Leah. The Lady in Red seduces Han Solo but not before it’s discovered that Luke’s real father is Thomas Anderson–sent back through time by rebels so he could father Linda Hamilton’s baby.
Ooops, got carried away there…
Editing out JAr JAr is no solution…
That movie’s flaws can not be fixed by merely removing a few scenes, and realy why would an amature do any beter than a proffesional editor.
There are already a few Phantom edits out there some are supposedly considered better than others. That is all subject to the biases of the viewer. My 2 yr old loves Jar Jar but is bored by the other charaters (Come to think of it I was bored with them too) he would not like a JAR JAR less TPM.
If a movie is bad it is usually bad to the core, no matter how many tweeks you try to do there is no help (See Heavens Gate for a prime example of how various re edits could not save a bad picture).
In the end a Turd is a Turd no matter how you recut it.
I need to be re edited
Repeat to my self… I will preview my posts, I will preview my posts… I will… aw hell who am I kidding.