Officers - commissioned, petty and warrant - historical RN

Factual Questions
1

Okay, I’m a little bit submerged in nautical lore these days. In my copious spare time, I’m reading The Yellow Admiral (Book 18 of the Aubrey/Maturin series). While driving to and from work, I’ve listened to an audiobook of Caroline Alexander’s The Bounty about half a dozen times. I have the first volume of Horatio Hornblower waiting patiently in my must-read queue. Oddly enough, after almost a year of this fascination, my family steadfastly avoids discussing any topic in my presence that might conceivably segue into naval lore, history, terminology, etc. I really can’t think why.

Anyway, a few questions came my way recently, which I have not so far been able to answer with any kind of authority. As is my natural habit, I turn to the Inner Brotherhood (Siblinghood?) of the Dope. Here are the issues at hand.

While the British Royal Navy of the late 18th and early 19th centuries did not seem to have any standard regulations stipulating that persons serving in x rank should be of y age (excepting midshipmen and those applying for promotion to lieutenant, perhaps), it seems pretty clear, though, that one’s failure to rise through the ranks at an acceptable rate was a fairly sure sign that one’s career prospects as a naval officer were not altogether bright. So, assuming that one has performed well (but not prodigiously so) and refrained from making any important enemies, at what age could one expect promotion within the officer’s ranks? Or, rather, at about what age would one be considered rather long in the tooth for a lieutenant? What about warrant and petty officers?

Along these same lines, what was the process for filling warrant and petty officer ranks? Supposing, for example, that the bosun’s mate on a given ship was killed in battle. Would another bosun’s mate be selected from before the mast? Or would a midshipman or lieutenant be more appropriate? Which, if any, of the warrant/petty officers’ ranks were considered natural steps on one’s way to a captaincy?

What say ye, naval scholars and jolly jack tars?

2

Hmm…theres a lot of questions in this post. Ill try and tackle a few.

Firstly the question of age versus rank. Officers begin as an Ensign usually at a college graduate age. If they perform well enough they should expect LT within 4 years. After that Lieutenant commander should be expected in their mid 30s. Late 30s early 40s for commander. A late 30s LT would be considered a “long in the tooth” LT.
Petty Officers are within the enlisted ranks of the Navy. Most personnel make PO around their early 20s. From there every rank there after is a petty officer rank.

The next question regarding what happens in the unfortunate even that we lose a sailor.
A boson Mate is an enlisted rate so his/her position would have to be filled by another enlisted member. In most cases there are more than one Bosun to fill the missing position. It wouldnt be filled by an LT and most definitely not a midshipman. A midshipman is someone who is in the process of become an officer and not qualified to fill any position in the fleet.

Warrant and Petty officers are not steps in to becoming a Captain. That can only be accomplished by an officer.

Hope this helps. I tried to answer your questions as simply as I could without getting into Rank structure and advancement too much.

3

If I remember right, a Warrant Officer was not really a “military” officer. A warrant was issued to men who performed very important non-military roles such as the ships surgeon. A man like Maturin was most definitely a gentleman of advanced education and therefore an officer in social station. But he had not been brought up in the RN and was in no way qualified to command a ship. Therefore, he was not commissioned by his majesty. So instead he was given a warrant that gave him officer status even if he was outside the chain of command. I think the ships Sailing Master, Master Carpenter and Quartermaster were also warrant officers.

4

In the US Navy a warrant officer is most definitely a “military” officer. They are somewhere between a senior enlisted and officer rank. They cannot command a ship.
I’m thinking the OP’s question was in reference to British Royal Navy now. In that case disregard most of what Ive said. :smack:

5

The previous post relates(by Hypno toad) to a differant navy in a rather differant time period.
For deckhands, reaching Petty Officer level would usually take 12 years or more, it could take 8 years just to make it to Leading Hand.

This was true right up to WW1.

The movement of ratings through to officer was slower still, aroud the time mentioned and with the class system working well, it was very unlikely this would happen except in rare occasions.

As for officers, it depends, because some certainly moved extremely quickly through to Captain and beyond, and often this was based entirely on merit, it also explains why the RN had an advantage as leadership and ability were given every oppportunity.

There still has to be made mention that if you had the right connections you could still purchase your commission, and could rise which would give you status, but getting to Admiral was pretty strictly done on seniority in post and ‘dead mens shoes’ in a very literal sense of the word.

For those who did excel, it was often the case that Captains whilst waiting were offerred the rank of Commadore.

A great deal of promotion was done through patronage, its probably better to think of this in terms of mentoring, where high ranking officers got to choose their own staff, and obviously there would be some nepotism there, but in general the best junior officers would be in high demand, the success of an Admiral often depended upon their ability to select and bring on their staff, and they were not about to put complete dolts in crucial roles.

It was still the case that to make Leuitenant would take around six years and was based strongly on passing examination boards.

Here is some material for you to read.

http://www.hmsrichmond.org/warrant.htm

6

Yes, my post was in relation to the time period in the Patrick O’Brien novels mentioned in the OP.

7

Do you have a cite for this? Was it not rather education that made the difference? For example, Nelson was of lower-middle class birth, being the son of a vicar. I’ve read a time or three over the years of officers coming ‘up through the hawsehole’. The US term would be mustang.

8

A lieutenant is a commisioned officer; a midshipman is a “prospective” officer (in training for a commision, so to speak). Neither would be considered eligible to be boatswain.

None - there is no natural step there. A few officers “came in through the hawsepipe” - i.e. they started out as seamen “before the mast” and were then made midshipmen, which is the first rung on the ladder to command.

9

I thought a vicar were actually fairly high up in social status, being the top Church man in the parish and supervising the whole operation. From (admittedly fictional) things I’ve read, it seemed that the vicar in an area was traditionally considered one of the nobs, and might well enjoy many of the trappings of a country gentleman, although undoubtedly with less leisure.

10

Of course, in comparison to the Army or Marines (US), don’t the petty officer ranks run all the way from corporal to the highest possible enlisted ranks? Perhaps it might be better to ask, when can a sailor expect to make Chief Petty Officer, for is that not when they really become a major disciplining and supervising force over their fellow enlistees?

11

For the United States Army, the Non-Commissioned Officer ranks run from Corporal (Paygrade E4) all the way to Sergeant Major of the Army (Special Paygrade, E-10). For the United States Air Force, the NCO ranks run from Staff Sergeant (E5) all the way to Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force (Special Paygrade, E-10). The United States Marine Corps has NCO ranks running from Corporal (E4) to Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps (Special Paygrade, E-10). The United States Navy has Petty Officer rates (note the difference in terminology) running from Petty Officer Third Class (E4) to Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (Special Paygrade, E-10). The United States Coast Guard has Petty Officer rates running from Petty Officer Third Class (E4) to Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard (Special paygrade, E10).

Here is a link listing the E-10 special grades.

12

Note that in the US Services, the first level of Warrant Officer(W-1) is non-commissioned, but also not enlisted. However, the Chief Warrants(CW-2 through CW-5) are commissioned officers ranking below O-1. USAF does not use them, the Navy only uses W-2 through W-5, and IIRC the Army uses W-1 through W-5. I’m nor sure if the Marine Corps uses W-1. There are specialist slots in the Navy, known as Limited Duty Officers, who rate mainly from O-1 through O-4, with a few slots for O-5 through O-7.

13

I thought LDO were limited to promotion to Captain?

14

Yes, CPO is the major jump in supervisory roles within the Navy. Normally this rank is achieved within your early to mid 30s.

15

Quartz
Here is your quote, damned awful webby though.
http://www.godfreydykes.info/THE%20ROYAL%20NAVY%20WARRANT%20OFFICER%20PART%20THREE.htm

You’ll notice that this article discusses promotion of Warrant Officers, this is the route that any lower deck rating would have to persur for promotion.

One third the way down it mentions an Admiral being the first to come from the lower decks, warrant officer level, for 50 years, this and other items such as backlogs of pay etc provided the, rather slow, impetus for reform.

This site will give you more than you ever wanted to know about officer promotions within the Royal Navy over time, and you have to add in that Lower Deck ratings would take very much longer.

http://www.jmr.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conJmrArticle.52/viewPage/1

16

Thanks, but it’s about a later period than concerns this thread. Further, this was a battlefield promotion From this web page:

The rest of the page bears this out.

One would expect that.

17

Vicars were considered to be gentlemen (sometimes just)so were middle class as opposed to yeoman class, most lived lives of genteel poverty and were not very high up socially within the parish though there were some very wealthy ones who tended to delegate their actual duties to poorer colleagues.

18

As far as local Vicars, these would have quite some authority, and some material wealth.

Some of the largest buildings in medieval England were the tithe barns, which deonstrates how much could be exacted from the populace.

Tithes went right up to the 1930’s but by then were almost gone, except in places such as Norfolk and Wales.

There were serious tithe riots in the 1880’s and these were not finally eliminated until the Finance Act 1977 when such tithes became transferred to the Inland Revenue and became collectable as income tax money.

Tithes were used to finance many parish functions, and the Vicar would have had a deal of responsibility for assessing, collecting and distributing, along with enforcing through the Church Courts.

The local Vicar was very much a middle class, lower gentry person, and had a better standard of living, which is shown by studies that indicate they enjoyed a longer life on average than those around them.

19

Yeah, but there’s a distinction (in the Church of England) between a vicar and a rector of a parish … the rector being the priest who has the rights to the living (i.e. the income from tithes and such). It wasn’t unusual, at some periods, for a priest to have more than one living; since the priest couldn’t physically perform services in more than one parish at the same time, he’d have an officially appointed “deputy” to carry out his duties, as it were, vicariously. So, while the rector of a parish would generally be pretty well off, a vicar could be a mere functionary on a limited stipend. (The distinction persists in the Church of England even to this day.)