Official Spoiler Thread for Dark Tower VII - ye have been warned, say thankya

I want credit for calling Dinky being in the last one!

Good read. I loved the last book, though I’m not turning cartwheels over the ending. Then again, King himself didn’t LIKE the ending, and I can agree that, given how this story has been built up over the years, there was no other way to really end the series.

I was hoping to see Jack Sawyer. Patrick seemed a little…forced to me, and I was expecting more of a threat from the Crimson King.

I wasn’t happy with Susannah’s exit. When Eddie died, the only thing I said was, “Well, I didn’t see THAT coming.”

But I knew that not all of them would make it to the Tower.

So, while I wasn’t crazy about the ending, I can live with it.

I just finished it myself.

I kind of wish King spent more time tying up lose ends and less time tying everything into the Browning poem (the whole Dandelo plot). I guess I’m one of those ah*s that King talks about in the Coda. I want the ending with the answers in it. But, as King says, the fun is (or should be) in the journey ($%#@!).

One thing that bugged me since reading “The Gunslinger”, is what set Roland off on his mission to save the tower to begin with. Sometime between setting off after Walter for a personal grudge and catching up with him, he learned that the Tower was in danger, and Walter / The Man in Black would set him on his way toward fixing it. With each successive book, I think this might be the one that explains it (knowing in my heart that it will never be explained).

There’s kind of a dull ache in the back of my head that wants to know why the Tower seems to consist of nothing but rooms containing relics from Roland’s past. Who went to all the trouble to retrieve all these relics and preserve them, and why? What about all the machinery to generate the beams? Where’s the snack room or cafeteria? Where’s the elevator? I know there’s no answer, so it’s best not to even dwell on it, but still…

I think that the rooms would change for whoever walks through the tower. I think the Crimson King saw something in one of his rooms he couldn’t resist and that’s how he locked himself out on a balcony.

I was wondering how the CK got into the tower in the first place. I thought you needed a sigul of Eld to open the tower, but maybe I’m misremembering.

Is there a continuity error? I started re-reading The Gunslinger and I flipped at the end and there is a mention of the Horn of Eld. Did I mistake the context, or does he get rid of it along the way?

I now know why Susannah had to leave. Since Roland was going to repeat everything, she couldn’t be with him.

That last paragraph is a recount of Roland’s dream that he always has of approaching the Tower. Go back a few lines.

Well, finally finished it.

I’ll admit, I’m a little disapointed. Especially by two of the deaths: Modred and RF. Modred, okay, he was, all-in-all, a minor character. Blown away. Okay. I guess. It just seemed to me they were building him up as some great enemy, and pretty much all he did was piss and moan.

RF on the other hand almost made me scream. This was, to me, King’s penultimate villain (I still consider the creature from ‘IT’ to be the ultimate). And he dies… Well… How he died. Stupid. Lame. Especially if, as mentioned above, Modred is really only a minor character. He died -stupidly-, and every other place I’ve seen him, he’s been really, REALLY damn clever. Argh. I’m gonna loose sleep over this one. Grr.

On the other hand…
Roland having the horn at the end rocked. It gave it a sense of, “Well, maybe this time…” And Roland’s horrible sickening revelation as he opens the last door…

One thing I noticed. I know a lot of people are talking about how Roland may be needing to learn the ‘quest-versus-humanity’ thing. And I think he made a single great, telling stride in a minor moment. When he slept with the woman in the key world in the hotel. People who do not have empathy for other human beings feel greater comfort in being alone (IANAPsychiatrist, I’ve just heard). He wanted comfort, and companionship. It shows that this journey has changed him, at least a little, into realizing that other human beings ‘matter’.

Now, the big question is… How will the ‘new’ journey differ?

(Oh, and one other thing. I don’t know why, but I was vaguely disapointed we never saw any of the ‘alien race’ from Insomnia in the book. Unless I missed something?)

i think from reading other sites that the Tower is roland somehow. Each quest his soul/tower get a little cleaner/better. This is why it was so easy for him to defeat the Crimson King. Prior trips to the tower would have revealed that the CK was stronger before and gets weaker each trip. This is the “bad” part of Roland. roland is the ageless starnger and is the CK, too in a way.

When Roland keeps smelling alkali on entering the DT, it’s a foreshadowing of the desert, but isn’t it fire and brimstone i.e., hell?

HELP DAMNIT.

Oh, don’t read those other sites. They’re filled with BS, every poster trying to come up with their own “unique” interpretation that isn’t based on any sort of facts from the text. We know very little about the Crimson King in Roland’s world, since the book that we see him the most is *Insomnia * - which King summarily dismisses as “tricksy”.

So has anyone else read Bev Vincent’s book yet? I’ll probably get it for myself for Christmas. I want to re-read the whole series, but think that I should wait a few years before undertaking it again. This just isn’t a story I want to burn out on.

Wow. That’s all I can say. It’s all that I feel. I finished the book yesterday afternoon and just sat for awhile in a daze. I know there are a lot of mixed feelings about the ending, but I feel that it fits perfectly. Roland is a perfect example of obsession. His inability to see anything but the tower has caused him to re-live it again and again until he gets his shit together. I definitely agree that the only way Roland can truly succeed is by NOT entering the tower. It’s nothing but a trap, cursing him to go back to the desert and chase the man in black forever. The tower is nothing. It’s just something to chase. Without the chase, Roland feels empty. It’s like he needs to persue it to survive. He’s a junkie in his own right, trapped in ka’s wheel until he finds a way to escape it. In a way, it’s kind of like he’s trapped in hell. It reminded me of Neil Gaiman’s Sandman in a way. There is a sequence in that series where a man is condemned to “Eternal Waking.” Basically, this bad man must exist in an eternity of waking up from a nightmare, realizing that it’s a nightmare, feeling secure and safe for a moment until something horrifying happens, causing him to wake up again in another place, relieved that it was all a dream. . . etc etc etc.
Roland is trapped, but he can also escape. It has shades of reincarnation beliefs, except that Roland has to live the same life over and over again. I was kind of expecting him to literally be reborn again, and have to live his ENTIRE life over again, but starting from the desert is much better.
Ok, I’m babbling now.
Oh, one more thing. About Jake and Eddie being brothers in the alternate New York. I thought it fit perfectly because in their Ka-tet, they were brothers. They loved each other as brothers do, and I think they identified with eachother as brothers. Didn’t they both call Roland “Father?”

[QUOTE=ArrMatey!]
RF on the other hand almost made me scream. This was, to me, King’s penultimate villain (I still consider the creature from ‘IT’ to be the ultimate). And he dies… Well… How he died. Stupid. Lame. Especially if, as mentioned above, Modred is really only a minor character. He died -stupidly-, and every other place I’ve seen him, he’s been really, REALLY damn clever. Argh. I’m gonna loose sleep over this one. Grr.

[QUOTE]

Can I get an amen! This is exactly what I thought as well. When I read the RF death, I put the book down, looked at my husband, and said, “Is King kidding?” 'Course, Mr. Snicks didn’t know what the hell I was talking about, but it had to be said. King really blew it with this one.

It was good. I liked it (except for Flagg). I still really don’t know about King writing himself into the entire story - it kind of takes me out of it, you know? And that’s something an author should avoid at all costs.

I wonder if Susanna had gone with Roland, would she have gotten stuck in the loop too? Or would she be stuck at the base of the tower, waiting endlessly for Roland’s return?

Wow. Finally finished it. I just… wow.

I have to wonder a little bit about King’s retelling of his accident with Roland and Jake now involved. It’s the sort of thing that if I’d written it, I’d probably almost believe it, at least sometimes. I wonder if he almost believes it, at least sometimes.

For myself, anyway, I don’t know that he had much choice in writing himself into the book. Some stories go the way you want them to; some stories write themselves, and if I’ve learned anything about Sai King’s craft from these books, it’s that this is a story that wrote itself.

I don’t know. It’s going to take me a while to figure out what I really think about it. But thankya, Stephen. Thankya big big.

Finally read this… finished it last night. Kind of strange to realize that I’ve been following this series for more than half my life!

I interpret the horn on his belt as a sign that each time he learns something important, the Tower (or ka, or whatever) kind of “throws him a bone” on the next loop… in this case, he realized before entering the Tower that he should have picked up the horn at Jericho Hill, so this time the Tower fixed things so that he HAD done so. In this fashion, his lessons can stick with him even when his memory resets.

Not that I think the horn itself is so vital (the door DID open without it, after all), but Roland’s concern for it (or lack thereof) shows something about his attitudes. It’s an important relic of the line of Eld, and Roland’s disdain to bother picking it up was a symptom of his greater problem. Next time through, his concern for the horn shows how much his general ability to CARE has improved. Not only can he care about people… he can care about THINGS that mean something to people.

(Now that I think of it, wasn’t this part of Superman’s development in “Kingdom Come”?)

Aside from letting King use the final line, the “back in the desert” bit works in the sense that soon after this point, Roland will draw the first member of his new ka-tet (Jake or an analog thereof). In a sense, this final ka-tet is Roland’s “final exam”: the way he deals with them through the troublesome events which follow is the behavioral sample upon which his moral development will be judged by the Tower.

Presumably, this iteration of Roland will tell the man in black that he can damn well wait outside the cavern while Roland pulls his young sidekick to safety!

Roland’s completed development will probably involve being sufficiently mission-oriented to save the Beams, but sufficiently humane to realize afterward that the job is done and it’s time for everyone to start picking up the threads of a normal life.
As in real life, it’s important to be able to work toward a worthwhile goal, but it’s also important to know when to quit. Failing the former makes you useless to those around you, failing the latter makes you, at best, equally useless, or worse, a danger (as Roland certainly has been to those around him!)

In such a case, Roland will abandon the Tower once he realizes that saving the Beams has accomplished his goal (saving the universe, stopping the world from moving on, etc.), and thus will never get to the room at the top of the Tower.

Mind you, this won’t necessarily be a happy ending for everybody. Jake and Eddy (or their analogues in this loop) may still be killed in action. A “fixed” Roland, however, will be able to realize that there’s been as much dying and suffering as circumstances require, and it’s time to stop before he causes any more, NEEDLESS, pain to his remaining friends.

This all seems to fit pretty well with the general trend of the series, as Roland has gone from being a soulless Terminator to being a man capable of sitting down and crying over the death of an animal. In this sense, I agree with King that the ending as written truly IS the ending that HAD to be written. A character is supposed to grow and change in a story… this character just needed a couple more cycles through the mill than most!

That’s the best recap yet, Squire Trelane. Welcome to the board!

I agree. Well done, Squire Trelane!

… and also, The Onion reviewed it in its most recent issue.

Thank you for the compliments!

I finished this book just over three weeks ago now… (actually exactly 4! - now I think about it… )

I loved the stories - - especially DTIV (which was the first I read - - ok shoot me! )

I think the ending was kind of… oh… but then, I agree with King… how else could you end it?..

“Roland opens the door to the room at the top of the tower… Suddenly bright lights, a young brightly dressed man with wires hanging from his ear and waist band approaches. Loud music, that Eddie would have identified as Rock music plays.
‘Roland Deschain’ the man shouts. ‘You’ve been Punk’d’!”
or for UK Dopers, the Crimson King is in the room, peels off his hat to reveal… Jeremy Beadle!

“You bastard” says Roland… “I knew it”…
Did anyone else get that kind of… oh, no… we’ve got to go through the whole series AGAIN! feeling… I think if you got that - King won…

Also I think it opens a very nice open space for anyone wishing to make a film version… (which I would sell my soul to do, however I’m not a film maker [yet] ) because you could follow the basic plot points, but have different parts and just have it set as the next go around… including the horn… then you could decide to have him wake up, and Bobby’s in the shower… or still have the loop thing, and this time Cuthbert and Alain are riding with him…
One thing that never did get explained that I was hoping for, or which I would love to debate on… Is Roland’s World OUR world in a distant future… all the pointers are there that the technology that is from the “Old” times is our technology… e.g. the Citgo oil tankers in IV, Honda engines… “Hey Jude” on the piano, North Central Positronics ( not actually real but you know what I mean )…

someone else could use that and expand on it, Terminator style…

anyway, I loved it… those were my thoughts… Although I was disapointed that he chucked away Insomnia - that’s one of my favourites ( not sure exactly why! )

also, I need to re-read it, does the guy really try and crash a plane with explosives into the building?? how scary is that…

My WAG: it is mentioned that time does not flow at the same speed in the different worlds. This might explain it.

Also, we don’t know how long the beams were faltering. I’ve always seen the tower as a spindle and the various worlds are like platters. Maybe the tower’s “illness” caused some of these platters to spin off their plane and dip into other worlds.

As the story got to the end, I started imagining that Roland was the tower in a way. I liked the ending. Especially, the brief period that Roland comes to the horrifying realization that he has to start over again.

If King were to write the whole thing over again, I’d be in line to read it.

Zombie threads are okay in Cafe Society, right?

I just read the entire series over the course of a month. I am really, really grateful I came to this series late - I cannot imagine what it must have been like waiting years and years for the stupid man to finish the damn thing. I feel like I definitely need a re-read - there were a lot of details I skimmed in order to get through the plot. Overall I really enjoyed it though. I didn’t realize just how much I was into it until the scene where Roland calls his ka-tet bondsmen and shares water with them - I was reading it on the subway and started crying like a baby. And when Eddie and Jake and Oy died - good Lord, I’m glad I was at home.

The one thing that left me frowning was Susannah’s ending. It didn’t seem true to me at all. She’s gone through hell and lost most of her ka-tet to reach the damn Tower, and then at the last minute - she bails? For a reality that might not even be true? I realize Roland had to face the Tower alone, but the scene where she wants to leave and he begs her to stay left me scratching my head - I’d envisioned a scene where she wants to follow him but he forces her to go to safety, or something of that sort.

The ending itself … I’m still digesting it. I think it was fitting, I guess. At least there is some hope of redemption with the Horn - although my gut feeling upon reading the end was to find King and slap him into next week. Especially his whole high-and-mighty attitude towards the readers who want closure. Seriously, what the fuck?

I realize I’m just reiterating emotions that y’all are over and done with, but I just needed to get that out of my system, say thankya. :slight_smile: