Offshoring - the snake that is eating itself.

And, by the by, if people want to argue semantics about how social sciences aren’t actually sciences, the same game can be played the other direction with a natural science like climate science.

There are no global historical eperiments we can run to determine the exact effects of carbon and methane emissions on long-term temperature trends. All we can basically do is sit back and record what’s happening and fit it into our best available models. Nonetheless, based on careful observation and a bit of statistical jiggery pokery, the consensus among climate scientists is that humans have played a significant part with respect to the current warming of our planet.

Is that science? Of course it is. I don’t claim to understand it, but I do accept scientific consensus.

The analogy between that and macroeconomic trends is very close. And exactly as is the case with climate consensus, economists can come to conclusions that run contrary to political interests. I, for one, haven’t been waving any sort of “rah-rah markets are always perfect” flag. And in point of fact, it could possibly make a good deal of sense from a climate science perspective (if we can get Japan and Europe to go along with it) to institute an environmental tariff on Chinese imports if they can’t join us in reducing their carbon emissions. Trade is generally beneficial, but that doesn’t mean we always and forever have to take a hard line against tariffs in every conceivable case.

I can agree with this. There might be reasons to put tariffs in place for political reasons, but people who come along and say their going to improve our economy by using tariffs generally don’t understand how markets work. You might be able to improve certain sectors of the economy, but you’re almost always going to hurt other sectors more. Bush’s steel tariffs were a perfect example.

We wouldn’t want to impose tariffs to stop ‘offshoring’ though. Possibly to force the Chinese to change their monetary policy…sure, I could see that (though it would probably backfire on us if we tried to do this). But the idea that we should categorically impose across the board tariffs against all low wage countries (as the OP has repeatedly called for) is both foolish and, frankly, repugnant too. It’s ironic to me that the OP at least nominally claims to be left leaning, when most of the folks I’ve heard this particular argument from were loony isolationist right wingers who don’t have a clue how trade works and who truly believe that the US could and should cut itself off from the rest of the world, that somehow this would bring back jobs and prosperity to America.

-XT

A free floating currency.

Oh, I’m sorry, I might be confusing you with other free market fanatics.

I think a lot of people don’t consider social sciences REAL sciences. Good for you if you do, by your definition, as a tax lawyer, I am also a scientist.

In the long run we’re all dead.

Yes but can it create jobs faster than it loses jobs due to a currency peg?

In the long run we’re all dead.

In the long run we’re all dead and there is no guarantee that we will be in a position to sell them much of anything other than our crops by the time they get done with us (yeah I know its not going to get there but if we keep letting them do whatever the fuck they want without standing up to them, it could).

That all depends on how much you value aggregate wealth versus utility.

If our society was 10 people and everyone made $10 and they started to engage in trade that reduced the income of 9 people to $7 and the 10th person’s income rose to $100, then yeah you could say that society was better off but I think you could make an argument that society is worse off as well.

Yeah technology has nothing to do with it. How do you explain that trade has been around for thousands of years and it has not been until recent technological innovation that our standard of living has really skyrocketed? Trade is great and it is necessary in the long run but we can and should punish those who would try to take unfair advantage.

Econmists think that trade is the engine of economic growth (and it is surely important) but most of my engineering friends think that it is technological innovation because trade is just something that happens, its been happening for millenia and it was science (the real kind) and technology that drove the industrial revolution, that drove the technological revolution, that drove economic growth. Science, technology and maybe pornography are the drivers not trade, trade has been around forever.

The OP’s well intentioned comments aside, we are talking about retaliatory tariffs. We are trying to get the Chinese to play fair (or at least that is what the politicians are talking about) not trying to cut ourselves off from the world.

That monetary policy is providing some of the thrust towards offshoring. A floating currency won’t stop offshoring but it will slow it down somewhat… perhaps enough to make a large difference in our economy.

Protectionism and mercantalism work great as long as your trading partners don’t retaliate. Just ask Germany in the 1960’s or Korea in the 1980’s. Noone would even consider tolerating American protectionism or mercantalism but we seem to be OK with that sort of behaviour from China.

What on earth are you talking about? I’m serious; can you please explain this “Assumption” I have made that you have entitled “free floating currency”?

A lot of people believe in space aliens, ESP, and creationism. Ignorance is not a point of view.

No, you’re not, so you must not have understood. Perhaps I did not make myself clear; science is the examination of evidence to draw conclusions about how the universe works. Tax lawyers aren’t trying to uncover how the universe works.

Now, if you were an economist engaged in finding out how taxation affects behaviour, well, now you’re a scientist.

My daughter’s still alive 50 years from now, so if it’s all the same to you I’d like to support policies that will encourage the growth and sustainability of society. You can choose a nihilist path if you like, but I’d like to do something about pollution and world hunger, too.

That’s a snappy quote, but it’s still not the basis of sound policy. Not to mention that the Keynes was speaking about an entirely different economic problem.

I’m not advocating inaction in the face of a business cycle slump, as Keynes’s critics were. The benefits of alleviating the hemorrhaging of the economy are greater than the costs. There’s no need to wait. But for growth, to help everyone in the future? We should always be pursuing high-growth policies which help the most people over time. And that means trade.

The currency peg isn’t something new. The Chinese have been engaging in strict capital controls for some time. And yet the economy was still able to engage in job creation before the crisis. The term “jobless recovery” has been brought up already. And I have already pointed out that this term did not mean zero net job growth. Instead, unemployment lagged behind other macro indicators like GDP. That means slow job growth, not non-existent job growth. And that was true even with the currency manipulations (technically, it’s not a strict peg).

So let’s talk about the peg a little.

Is it friendly? No. Is it having a huge negative effect? Maybe not. What the Chinese are doing, essentially, is engaging in a form of mandatory savings. Saving is not a bad thing in ordinary times. Frankly, the US should engage in much more saving, too, as we escape this downturn. So what happens with the exchange rate if the Chinese drop their strict capital controls, but the country still wants to save more than they consume? Potentially very little. If the peg is dropped, and the Chinese people save money through a different technique, then the exchange rate won’t alter much.

Meanwhile, as I like to point out again and again, we have our own currency. We should be doing more on our end first. If our own Fed engaged in smarter policy, it would put a lot of strain on that currency peg. I’m not saying that the Chinese capital controls are friendly–they’re not–but we should still put our own house in order first. Blame the Fed. If we correct our own money problems, and the Chinese are still being unfriendly, then we can deal with it. But only after we start down a smarter currency path ourselves should we deal with the hassle of international relations.

I agree entirely with this, but we’re still not dealing with 9 people losing and 1 person winning big. Wage growth at the bottom end was stagnant, even negative, over the Bush years, but the Bush years ended in the middle of business cycle trough, the largest recession since the Depression.

Before the crisis, it was more fair to say that we had 1 person winning big, another few doing fairly well, with the lower half keeping on keeping on. Now, that’s not an ideal situation either. And what’s more, that’s not an ideal situation regardless of the reason for the inequality. Even if this situation has nothing to do with offshoring, I would still be looking for ways to help our low-income workers, including: more progressive tax rates, more benefits like health care for low-income workers, a stronger unemployment net, etc. I advocate for all of these things, and I would do so even if offshoring has nothing to do with our rising inequality (which is a possibility).

What we don’t want to do is interfere with our long-term growth potential as we try to engage our inequality problems. This isn’t just about us. It’s about our children, too.

I didn’t say tech has nothing to do with it.

It’s technology that drives specialization, and it’s trade that gives us markets large enough to provide the incentives to engineers for more and more innovation. Maybe I’m too steeped in econo-speak to make that clear, but I’m not neglecting the tech angle. Without the ability to accumulate and trade, there would be significantly less technological growth.

A general lack of respect for property rights.

Trade has existed for a long time, yes, but until relatively recent times it had mostly been the red-headed stepchild of the economy. Even old empires with fairly developed transport infrastructure didn’t necessarily use that infrastructure freely. Rome had extensive grain shipments from North Africa to the capital, which allowed a greater population in Italy than they could have supported with their own agriculture–but that was a form of tribute, not trade. It was taxes, not markets. Render unto Caesar, bitchez, as it went in the original Latin.

The political institutions that encourage accumulation of personal savings, thus providing a pool of capital for investment, and that further allow innovators to profit handsomely from their cleverness, are fairly new. Property rights and the rule of law are pretty wild ideas, even up to this day in some countries. After all, North Korea can and does steal all sorts of technological knowledge, like how to build a nuke, but what do they get from that? A squib instead of a bang. Without the proper government institutions in place, they’re not going anywhere. The leaders steal from the masses. It’s a modern feudal state, basically, and it will continue to be so no matter how many tech blueprints you give them.

All your points make the most sense.

Additionally, replacing our previous strong and wealthy manufacturing economy with a “service” economy, is not going to restore wealth to Americans. Doing a bunch of services in a country does not create wealth. Most poor third world countries are service economies.

Making things is what creates wealth.

Solyndra is building a huge new manufacturing plant for building solar panels in Fremont, California, right now. I pass by the construction site all the time.

Companies in the U.S. still make stuff. Here are some companies that still have big manufacturing operations in the U.S.:

Deere
Boeing
General Dynamics
General Electric

It sure is a good thing the United States makes things and is the largest manufacturing country on earth.

The U.S. commercial aircraft industry, were it a nation unto itself, would be one of the 40 largest exporting nations on the planet. And it represents less than a tenth of U.S. manufacturing exports, and far less than a tenth of U.S. manufacturing overall.

So many people just don’t seem to understand that there’s a whole wide world of manufactured goods besides what you can find in Wal-Mart.

I think most understand that quite well. But that sector is shrinking. The fact that it used to be world dominating does not mean that other countries aren’t gaining while we are rapidly losing. Todays numbers do not show the direction it is moving. See how much we do. Well, see how much China and India do. They check back in 10 years. China will soon overtake us. It wont suddenly turn around. We have set things in place so industry will seek cheaper labor and little or no regulation and environmental constraints. We are going to lose more year after year. We do have to think about the future, you know.

Exactly, Producing things is what creates growth.

We are a nation of consumers and spenders, as our wealth evaporates.

I think Peter Schiff explains it well dating back to 2006-2007 before the big fall.

Peter Schiff Was Right 2006 - 2007 (2nd Edition)

You cite economic consensus that free trade is good for all concerned. And I agree, that consensus exists across the ideological spectrum.

That economic consensus is based on several assumptions.

One of those assumptions is a floating currency.

Everyone from Adam Smith to Milton Friedman and Paul Krugman just assumes a floating currency when they come to the conclusion that free trade is good for everyone. Their arguments for free trade become a lot more mealymouthed once you introduce currency manipulation and a host of other assumption busting facts.

Just calling it ignorance is not an argument. Like I said, if you think social sciences are “sciences” then as a tax lawyer, I am a scientist.

Part of what I do is advocate for specific tax policies and a lot of that has to do with the social implications of specific tax policies. Will it affect marriage rates, college attendance, insurance coverage, saving for retirement, etc. So when I write a white paper discussing how some tax break or tax increase will cause some sort of change in societal behaviour, doesn’t that make me a scientist according to your definition?

You don’t need to be an economist to do that, you just need to come up with some plausible defensible theory. And actually, it doesn’t even have to be that defensible.

Supply side economics would not have the sort of longevity in a REAL science that it has had in the world of economics. Something as ideologically motivated as Austrian school economics would not have survived very long in a REAL science.

I understand that REAL science isn’t math but its more than a social science and when you say (paraphrasing) “You’re wrong Damuri because econmics is a science and the economic scientists all contradict what you say (even thought they make assumptions that are contrary to the facts in this case) so you’re sim ply wrong cuz they’re scientists” You are using the word science to imply something a lot more cetrtain that what youa re indicating now.

If your point is that consensus among economist should count for something, I totally agree, I also think that all that consensus is based on econkmic models that assume a floating currency.

I’m sorry if you are an economist and I have hurt your feelings, if it helps, I think economists are very important to our ability to understand the consequences of our actions but its doesn’t have anywhere the sort of certainty that something like physics has.

The rest of that reads: In the long run we’re all dead and there is no guarantee that we will be in a position to sell them much of anything other than our crops by the time they get done with us (yeah I know its not going to get there but if we keep letting them do whatever the fuck they want without standing up to them, it could).

Are you really so ready to give up the competitive advantage of the country your daughter is going to live in for the sake of an ideological faith in free trade?

How much does it help the 50 year old factory worker in Indiana to know that eventually someone will get a job that will replace the job that he lost? How much will it help his kids that are applying to college this year?

How sure are you that the job that eventually replaces the job that was lost is going to be anywhere near as good? Should we even be trying to preserve a vibrant working class job base here or are we all going to become investment bankers in the future?

I’m a firm believer in trade. I’m a firm believer in Keynesian responses to recessions. I am a firm believer in not letting your trading partners rape you in the assjust because you are afraid that it might trigger a trade war.

What do you mean put our own house in order. What is out of order?

And what are you suggesting we do short of triggering inflation (which could very well get out of control considering all the pent up inflationary pressure I think exists in our economy right now). I think wage inflation might be pretty good about now, drop the payroll taxes, increase government salaries, stuff like that.

Over the last 30 years 80% of income growth went to the top 1% of the scale. 96% of it went to the top 20%. This pattern does not appear to be reveersing itself anywhere in the near future.

I don’t thinkn offshopring would drop our unemployment to 5%, I think it would reduce the downward pressure on our economy’s ability to create more jobs and right now every little bit makes a signifcant difference.

I’m not advocating a policy of isolationism or protectionism. I am advocating retaliation.

You seemed to be giving a LOT of the credit to trade, something that has existed for millenia rather than stuff like the cotton gin or the computer (funny to think that in a thousand years, people will think of the cotton gin and the computer the way we think of bronze and the saddle).

And without technological innovation what would there be to trade beyond commodities?

OK you’ve sold me that trade is a good thing (I already believed that). What do we do about the currency peg?

Well, we did just have a massive FISCAL CRISIS, gonzo.

But prior to that, no, U.S. manufacturing was not shrinking. It was increasing.

Other countries are gaining. The U.S. was not losing, at least until the fiscal idiocy, but that’s not a crisis of manufacturing, it’s a monetary crisis.

You’re conflating so many concepts that I can no longer tell what you’re arguing. You said I was making “Assumptions that don’t apply in the real world,” and accused me of holding as one of those assumptions “free floating currency.” So, I don’t get it; by stating the fact that that economists are generally in favour of trade, do you believe that I was assuming that all currencies in the world are free floating? Why would I say something like that? What does that even have to do with the general observation that economists believe trade tends to create wealth?

Advocating for something or other isn’t science, it’s, well, advocacy. Do you actually do any primary research? There are lots of economists that research tax policy, after all. Perhaps you are one of them, I don’t know.

When you say: economist all agree that trade is good for everyone, you are invoking the authority of the consensus of economists everywhere to strengthen your argument about China’s currency peg which doesn’t enjoy the same universal consensus.

Your argument seemed to be that it doesn’t matter if China has a currency peg because it will all even out and China will actually only hurt itself in the long run. Well, the consensus for THAT idea is not there.

A lot of them think (like Hellestal) that a currency peg is just a form of forced savings that will right itself once the peg is released and the Chinese suddenly find themselves with all this purchasing power. They will buy up all sorts of stuff from America with all the dollars they have saved.

I don’t tknow that this is always true especially if the Chinese continue to engage in market manipulation and we do little more than bluster while they do so.

IANAE. I know enough to follow a conversation, I know enough to know that most amateur economists have a very incomplete understanding of economics and of the confounding factors that invalidate what they think they know about economics.