Offshoring - the snake that is eating itself.

[XT]

@Le Jacquelope

Well, as a matter of fact, we are degenerating. Have you looked at the economy as of late? And all the jobless recoveries we’ve had? Can you give any evidence that things are improving past that?

The economy that’s in a recession? That one? The one we aren’t out of yet? Or were you talking out of your ass about something else?

Hello, have you heard about what might happen to the US dollar soon?

Um…that it might go up, which would have a further detrimental impact on our foreign trade? Or were you talking about something else? What do you base you prediction on? Goat entrails and left wing blogs?

Define “bad harvest”. When was the last time we had a crop shortage of the likes of Russia’s wheat harvests (like the recent one that got hampered by the 2010 summer fires in Russia)? From what I understand we have maintained surpluses here. It used to be several days’ worth of surpluses back in the previous decades.

You understand correctly. One would think that this would inspire you to consider WHY we maintain surpluses, even when we have crop failures, or why crop failures engender price increases in the US…not starvation. Did you think we were simply immune to bad luck, being American and all? :rolleyes:

And like I said, what would happen to us if foreign countries embargo us or worse… if our currency collapses and the cost of imports (including food) goes through the roof?

If we were embargoed by anyone that mattered (I could see, oh, say North Korea or Iran embargoing us, for instance, but not the EU, Japan, South Korea, Canada, etc etc) is that they would be cutting their own throats. They might hurt us…it would kill them.

If our currency goes tits up you might as well write off much of the worlds economy, including your precious China…it would be tits up time. Oh…and having our currency go down would actually HELP us, export wise. It would hurt China big time, which is why they go to such effort to keep the US currency high and their own artificially low.

Have you considered opening a book on the basics of economics and trade? It might be more profitable for you than reading loony left wing blogs or just using your own well honed (snort) intuition and ‘common sense’.

You keep hiding behind these peer reviewed journals a lot here. These journals failed to predict this current economic collapse.

Ah…I see the problem here! You think that ‘peer reviewed journals’ are like tarot cards or palm reading! Obviously never having read one, you have arrived at the wrong impression! Let me assure you that if you ever do get around to reading such a beast it’s not going to tell you the winning lottery numbers for next Thursday.

Glad we could clear that up old boy! Next time just bring these little misapprehensions of yours out and we’ll clear em right up for you, ehe?

You can keep on genuflecting to these “peer reviewed journals” and keep on failing. And while you’re at it, look up “Appeal to authority”

So, instead I should appeal to ignorance, as you are doing? Well…I’ll keep that in mind. After all, I don’t believe there is a logical fallacy about ‘Appealing to ignorance and popular memes’, so that’s got to score you double points.

I’ll continue to point out your unrealistic fantasies and misconceptions about the market and its relationship to human beings because the march of history itself has continued to disagree with you.

Since you haven’t bothered to lay out what the ‘unrealistic fantasies and misconceptions about the market’ might be, or how I’m incorrect about how it relates to human beings (which is particularly funny, since I don’t actually think you have any idea what the Market or even A market is…gods, that’s rich), I’ll just soldier on. When you feel you want to actually try and make a point, do try and consider actually making it, instead of repeating this line of horseshit, m’kay? Thanks old boy, and remember that these days many decaffeinated beverages are just as tasty as the real thing…I mean that sincerely.

You’re wrong again. We could compete with them on price. No, really, we could. Or we can raise tariffs. It has been done. It’s being done by China right now. You’re wrong. China is competing for US manufacturing jobs and they’re getting them.

And yet, you’ve laid out not argument on how we would do so. Intuitively (even using the intuition of folks untrained in this field, in fact just some of that ‘common sense’ stuff), it seems pretty false on the face of it…after all, if we COULD compete with the Chinese on price on, say, clothing (just as a fer’instance), then, well, WE’D BE DOING IT.

As to raising tariffs, certainly it’s been done. We COULD do that, no doubt. It’s pretty universally considered a Bad Idea for a country like the US to raise tariffs across the board (by those idiots and no nothings who are economic experts in the field), but yeah, we could do that.

How will this solve our problems is a mystery though. It will make goods and services more expensive, and will probably lead to even more reciprocal tariffs being levied against the US, which will further drive up the prices (and also lead to US companies who export to places like China being hard hit and possibly having to lay off people).

Just a thought here…maybe if you laid out one of those ‘argument’ thingies, detailing or even glossing over outrageously how this would benefit the US, how such an imposition of tariffs would work…well, maybe we could ‘discuss’ it? It’s a radical idea, and it breaks the mold of you just asserting that everyone is wrong and all, but perhaps you could give it a whirl? You could explain how the tariffs would be imposed, on who, for how much, for what duration, etc etc, and then…

Someone would have to manufacture the robots. That’s a lot of robots. And if you want to wish that robots would be making robots then you’re asking for much bigger problems than economic issues.

Do you expect that low skilled blue collar workers (the strong lower classes as you put it earlier, to paraphrase) would be the ones building the robots? And that we’d need so many of them that this would make any kind of difference at all in the unemployment numbers? That it would make up for the fact that the costs of goods and services (which, correct me if I’m wrong, would have a far greater impact on those poor, huddled masses than the Fat Cat Capitalists, lighting their fine Cuban cigars on the backs of the peasantry, etc etc and all that jazz) would be made up by masses of jobs in robotic manufacturing??

The US already has a very vibrant and dynamic manufacturing sector. Far from withering on the vine or whatever, our productivity is actually increasing (and would be increasing more except for that really nasty recession thingy that you keep ignoring). This does not, however, translate into bunches and bushel baskets full of low paid, low wage, salt of the earth manufacturing jobs for the poor huddled masses. It translates into a few highly skilled and well paid workers, engineers and technicians. If you brought, say, clothing manufacturing back to the US it wouldn’t mean that we’d have manufacturing plants stuffed to the gills with workers, busily working away like good little bees. We don’t build stuff on the Chinese model anymore, and we won’t be building things on that model ever again. Why? Because the average US citizen isn’t willing to work for $.25/hour for 14-16 hours a day plus all the hazardous smoke and chemicals they can breathe or eat.

FINALLY, someone finally used the right word around here. This is the first CLOSE TO ACCURATE argument that you free market apologists have made.

Hm…well, if you agree then I’m going to need to re-think what I’m saying there. It MUST be wrong…

If robots do exactly what you fantasize about them doing, then guess what? We’re looking at a technological singularity. Especially when nano-manufacturing matures. At that point societal and economic collapse are absolutely impossible to avoid. One boss and one maintenance guy would be all that you need to run the factory and no one else would be able to afford their stuff.

Dude…robots already do much of the automated assembly and manufacturing in the US. This isn’t fantasy…it’s ‘reality’, at least it’s the reality that the rest of us have to live in. Have you been living under a rock for the past 4 decades? This isn’t exactly anything new.

As to the rest of your claptrap, the less said about it the better. It’s basically futuristic fantasy at this point. It’s not going to impact us in the short or medium term, has nothing to do with the fact that the US (and most other modern nations) already rely heavily on automation , and it has nothing to do with this discussion.

Luddism? If automation hits its stride you’d better be worried about societal collapse.

Gods…the irony. You just blew up an industrial strength, Straight Dope rated irony meter that’s lasted me for weeks now…

The same jobs we lost. Duh.

Too funny. I’m hoping that most of your post was done tongue in cheek by you, but I’m afraid you are serious. THAT is truly scary…

Look up “trickle-up economics”.

It’s your argument. If you think it makes some point for you, then by all means, look it up, put in a link and cite the relevant passages and I will dutifully read it and make comments. If not then I’ll take it to mean ‘I gots nuffin and was just sending you on a wild snipe hunt…’ and leave it at that.

I’m a business owner myself, for real. When the working class has more money they have more stuff that they want to buy and that includes houses and cars; they then come to me to insure it against losses and liabilities. That’s a LOT of policies for me. In this recession I’ve lost a LOT of policies because people have lost homes, gone homeless and had their cars repossessed.

Oh…a for real business owner, ehe? Well…that settles that. This obviously gives you an across the board view of all economic sectors and allows you to make real and meaningful anecdotal statements that give a genuine and expert snapshot of…

Oh, I jest. It means absolutely nothing. If you want to make a point then either make it logically or give me a cite or link and quote the relevant passages that illustrate whatever you think you are getting at. And, FTR chief, I own my own business as well (‘for real’)…and there are many other 'dopers who either own their own businesses now or have in the past. It cuts exactly zero ice, at least as far as I can tell from my own anecdotal experience here on the 'dope. Hell, even if you were an expert in the field (which clearly you aren’t, at least not in the field of economics or trade) you’d STILL need to back up your assertions.

The investor class is the highest class. The corporate heads are the next group. The business owners below that and the workers below them. The lowest class of all is the unemployed/homeless.

‘Workers’, of course, based on the above, would run the gamut of white and blue collar, say from millions a year to $10’s of thousands a year. That’s a BIG category. And why would business owners be above ‘workers’? Above all ‘workers’, or just above their ‘employees’? Do they get some sort of card or something to indicate their above-ness, or is there a secret handshake or something? If so, where do I get the details, since it’s obvious I’ve been missing out on all this good class warfare stuff…

-XT

[Le_Jacquelope]

@treis

@Le_Jacquelope

That word does not mean what you think it does.

I’m pretty sure it means when a statement doesn’t follow from the previous ones. Your embargo comment certainly qualifies, as it makes no sense in the context of the conversation.

Sure it does. We import food, do we not? What happens if we have one of these bad harvests and there is a food embargo? The connection is about as fragile as the Golden Gate Bridge.

Food banks, food stamps, church charity, dumpster diving, and probably a half a dozen other legitimate options.

I just posted a cite showing that food banks (which include church charities) have been getting overwhelmed. I also pointed out that Republicans are looking to cut welfare, as Arnold Schwarzenegger has tried to do in California - that means less food stamps.

That leaves dumpster diving and… what else? That, in a country that is supposed to be the richest in the world? We should not be having homeless people and beggars in the richest country in the world. At least China is trying to do something about theirs. We’re just setting our workers adrift.

What exactly am I missing here? Dozens of disparate organizations combining to successfully tackle a problem.

sigh The demand for food nearly overwhelmed their combined ability to provide.

When they have no money to buy food they will get food from food banks or from food stamps. These organizations might struggle to fully meet demand, but there’s not going to be a situation where people are starving to death.

What makes you say that? You think we’ll just have food falling from the sky?

Can you provide a cite where someone either died or was hospitalized for starvation because they couldn’t find a food bank or soup kitchen?

Huh? That’s not what I said. I said people will NOT be able to find food when the soup kitchens are overwhelmed and the Republicans cut welfare aid (as California’s Governor tried to do) and unemployment benefits are cut, leaving millions with no money. I’m talking about the future here.

@Le_Jacquelope

Oh really now?
Do I need to remind you of the traffic jams in China? China’s roads are clogged with cars.

Again, your theories fly in the face of absolutely astoundingly overwhelming reality.

There are ~70 million cars in China cite compared with about 250 million in the USA. In terms of per person, that is 1 car for every 18.5 people in China and 1 car for every 1.2 people in the USA. The idea that factory workers can afford cars in China is just ridiculous and flies in the face of all facts. They simply don’t make the wages to afford them.

Your 1 car per every 18.5 people doesn’t account for who actually owns those cars. To say that factory workers cannot afford cars is to fly in the face of history which shows they’ve quickly been made affordable to the working class, because that’s where all their sales growth is. Why would any car company price their vehicles only for the top 10%? They’d leave themselves open for companies like Tata… which no doubt probably builds their Chinese market cars in China. They’re already thinking about it with their higher-line cars… how long before the Nano is produced there?

If workers can’t afford cars in China they’ll get serviced by companies like Tata.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@RickJay

@Le_Jacquelope

So now you’re denying what was actually SAID in the article?

I certainly am denying that Henry Ford raised wages so his employees could afford them, yes. I have provided a quote from Henry Ford himself saying exactly that. You have provided an article from Ford’s website that says Ford realized his workers could afford the cars now that they made more money - which is not at all the same as raising wages SO they could afford the cars.

In this case you need more help than can be provided in this debate.

No, I don’t. I am on record, multiple times, as stating that a free trade deal with China is clearly not in the cards right now. And as there ISN’T a free trade deal with China, I’d think you would be happy with the current situation.

I don’t want any trade with China or any of those low wage nations.

Good deal. Now we’ll have biotech research graduates who can’t find a job because their jobs are going to India. What now?

We’ll have to do other things, as has always been the case. We found new jobs for switchboard operators. We found new jobs for chimney sweeps, whaling vessel operators, and typing pool workers. Economies change.

Okay, then show me what’s coming next. Can’t find anything? Hmmm. I wonder why. It could have something to do with the fact that as soon as the next big thing comes along all the grunt work goes overseas.

Name me one economy that has ever sustained itself by losing all the grunt work. While you’re at it, why don’t you tell us what you think the next big thing will be? Whatever it is I bet I can show you proof that it’s moving overseas.

In the meantime what will we do with the millions of people now who cannot find a job? Listen to your pro-offshoring fantasies about how losing a job overseas somehow creates a better paying job… even though this has rarely, if ever happened?

If you really think that what’s going to happen is that eventually 300,000,000 Americans are just going to sit around on their asses saying “Gosh, I can’t find any work,” you’re so far behind on the required reading here that I’m not sure where to start.

What required reading is this? Von Mises?

Look around you, man. There’s millions of long term unemployed out there desperately searching for work and not finding any. They can’t do anything to fix that. They’re trying and nothing is working.

We

Who’s “we”?

can only spend so much time knocking down absurdities, like your apparent belief that Chinese people are as rich as Americans,

And there’s only so much I can do to help your reading comprehension problems, as I never said the Chinese are as rich as Americans. I did say that our unemployed earn $0 which is as low as you can possibly get. (Except those Americans who are unemployed and in debt.)

Oh and as far as rich is concerned, tell me something: how far is China in debt as opposed to America? What’s the per capita debt ratio for each Chinese? The national debt clock says every American owes like $43,000 in debt now because of the national debt. So in that sense the Chinese are richer than us: they don’t owe as much.

or that there is mass starvation in the United States.

I didn’t say there is mass starvation. I said there would be if the Republicans win office and we keep sending jobs overseas.

And if the best argument any of you guys can come up with is “there’s dumpster diving, but at least you’re not China”… then yeah, your argument is beyond help.

You have shown absolutely nothing that supports the so-called benefits of offshoring. You have done a lot of denying reality, though.

[treis]

@Le_Jacquelope

@treis

I’m pretty sure it means when a statement doesn’t follow from the previous ones. Your embargo comment certainly qualifies, as it makes no sense in the context of the conversation.

Sure it does. We import food, do we not? What happens if we have one of these bad harvests and there is a food embargo? The connection is about as fragile as the Golden Gate Bridge.

Uh, no we do not. The U.S. is by far the largest net exporter of food in the world. We do import some foods that don’t grow in the U.S., or are out of season, but in terms of calorie production we generate much more food than we eat. Perhaps this is why you have such a warped view of the world. You seem to be completely ignorant of basic facts.

@Le_Jacquelope

sigh The demand for food nearly overwhelmed their combined ability to provide.

Nearly overwhelmed means that they weren’t overwhelmed. It means that they were able to meet the demand for their services, albeit with difficulty. Again, which just proves my point. The U.S. can, will, and has met the demand from their populace for food. Hell, we were able to do it 80 years in the worst economic crisis the world has ever seen. China still can’t meet the needs of its populace as well as we could nearly a century ago.

@Le_Jacquelope

Huh? That’s not what I said. I said people will NOT be able to find food when the soup kitchens are overwhelmed and the Republicans cut welfare aid (as California’s Governor tried to do) and unemployment benefits are cut, leaving millions with no money. I’m talking about the future here.

Uh ok. While you are making up futures that have essentially no chance of happening, can you have me hook up with Jessica Alba?

@Le_Jacquelope

There are ~70 million cars in China cite compared with about 250 million in the USA. In terms of per person, that is 1 car for every 18.5 people in China and 1 car for every 1.2 people in the USA. The idea that factory workers can afford cars in China is just ridiculous and flies in the face of all facts. They simply don’t make the wages to afford them.

Your 1 car per every 18.5 people doesn’t account for who actually owns those cars. To say that factory workers cannot afford cars is to fly in the face of history which shows they’ve quickly been made affordable to the working class, because that’s where all their sales growth is. Why would any car company price their vehicles only for the top 10%? They’d leave themselves open for companies like Tata… which no doubt probably builds their Chinese market cars in China. They’re already thinking about it with their higher-line cars… how long before the Nano is produced there?

If workers can’t afford cars in China they’ll get serviced by companies like Tata.

…

Which 5% of Chinese do you think own the cars? The richest 5% or the migrant factory workers? Seriously, come on now.

As for building a car for China’s working masses, hello? Did you miss the last few posts? China’s working masses are poor. They don’t earn anywhere close to enough to afford even the cheapest possible cars.

According to this site China’s GDP per capita is where America’s was back in 1880. I don’t get why you don’t understand how poor China actually is.

You talked about Ford’s 5$ a day plan. Adjusting for inflation, that 5$ a day would now be 105$ a day. In other words, in terms of real value that Ford worker would earn in three 8 hour days what a Chinese worker earns in a month.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@xtisme

@Le Jacquelope

Well, as a matter of fact, we are degenerating. Have you looked at the economy as of late? And all the jobless recoveries we’ve had? Can you give any evidence that things are improving past that?

The economy that’s in a recession? That one? The one we aren’t out of yet?

Exactly. THAT ONE. The one we wouldn’t be in if it weren’t for offshoring.

Um…that it might go up, which would have a further detrimental impact on our foreign trade? Or were you talking about something else? What do you base you prediction on? Goat entrails and left wing blogs?

That the dollar might go up? Who told you that? Faux News or some scheister trying to get you to buy into something?

You understand correctly. One would think that this would inspire you to consider WHY we maintain surpluses, even when we have crop failures, or why crop failures engender price increases in the US…not starvation. Did you think we were simply immune to bad luck, being American and all? :rolleyes:

The problem is not about surpluses, but rather distribution.

We have these surpluses but then we have poor people doing dumpster diving and overcrowding soup kitchens.

If we were embargoed by anyone that mattered (I could see, oh, say North Korea or Iran embargoing us, for instance, but not the EU, Japan, South Korea, Canada, etc etc) is that they would be cutting their own throats. They might hurt us…it would kill them.

Did the oil embargo kill Saudi Arabia?

If our currency goes tits up you might as well write off much of the worlds economy, including your precious China…it would be tits up time.

I’d like to see a comet hit China. I hate that country. I despise it. I despise them as much as I would have despised Nazi Germany.

Oh…and having our currency go down would actually HELP us, export wise. It would hurt China big time, which is why they go to such effort to keep the US currency high and their own artificially low.

Amen to that.

Have you considered opening a book on the basics of economics and trade? It might be more profitable for you than reading loony left wing blogs or just using your own well honed (snort) intuition and ‘common sense’.

You seem to be good at letting others do your thinking for you. In particular the right wing nutballs and right wing blogs which are notoriously BAD at predicting what’s coming next.

Ah…I see the problem here! You think that ‘peer reviewed journals’ are like tarot cards or palm reading!

Tarot cards and palm reading have a higher accuracy rate.

If I had bet my money on these peer reviewed journals I’d be dead broke right now. Did you bet on them? Aw, poor you!

Obviously never having read one, you have arrived at the wrong impression! Let me assure you that if you ever do get around to reading such a beast it’s not going to tell you the winning lottery numbers for next Thursday.

Boy, I can see that look on your face when everything went to hell despite what the journals said.

“But the journals said this couldn’t happen!!!”

I remember people like you back when they said stagflation couldn’t happen, either. They didn’t accept it until after it ran them over.

Glad we could clear that up old boy! Next time just bring these little misapprehensions of yours out and we’ll clear em right up for you, ehe?

So, instead I should appeal to ignorance, as you are doing? Well…I’ll keep that in mind. After all, I don’t believe there is a logical fallacy about ‘Appealing to ignorance and popular memes’, so that’s got to score you double points.

Oh dear, we have a full blown temper tantrum on our hands. Everything you’ve said has been proven wrong so now you’re in personal attack mode. You know what, you have a God given right to be as off-base as you want to be. Just don’t give anyone financial or investing advice and you’ll be just fine.

Since you haven’t bothered to lay out what the ‘unrealistic fantasies and misconceptions about the market’ might be,

I’ve been doing it all along. Ah, but your reading comprehension is getting in the way of seeing that.

And yet, you’ve laid out not argument on how we would do so.

You don’t know how we could drop our currency to below theirs? Really? If we declare default on our debts it would happen in a heartbeat.

How will this solve our problems is a mystery though. It will make goods and services more expensive, and will probably lead to even more reciprocal tariffs being levied against the US, which will further drive up the prices (and also lead to US companies who export to places like China being hard hit and possibly having to lay off people).

How much more tariffs can China levy against us than they have already? Huh? Boy, you need to go back to school.

Just a thought here…maybe if you laid out one of those ‘argument’ thingies

At this point it’s obvious that I’d need to draw it out in crayon and sing Spongebod Squarepants for you to recognize it.

Do you expect that low skilled blue collar workers (the strong lower classes as you put it earlier, to paraphrase) would be the ones building the robots?

Ah yes, those mythical robots you fantasized about replacing workers en masse. Tell me, with all those robots at Toyota’s American factories, do you think there are no workers there?

Ah yes, another one of your lame fantasies at work. Anyhoot. Who else do you think will be building these robots?

And that we’d need so many of them that this would make any kind of difference at all in the unemployment numbers? That it would make up for the fact that the costs of goods and services (which, correct me if I’m wrong, would have a far greater impact on those poor, huddled masses than the Fat Cat Capitalists, lighting their fine Cuban cigars on the backs of the peasantry, etc etc and all that jazz) would be made up by masses of jobs in robotic manufacturing??

It’s more than likely that your scenario of automation replacing returning manufacturing jobs won’t even happen. There are plenty of line workers at Toyota plants here: which means that even though they do have automation… the robots haven’t taken over as much as you claim it will.

The US already has a very vibrant and dynamic manufacturing sector. Far from withering on the vine or whatever, our productivity is actually increasing (and would be increasing more except for that really nasty recession thingy that you keep ignoring).

Ah yes, you keep talking about reading economics books but you never actually do so.

1. Productivity and jobs are not the same thing. In fact they may be inversely related. Increased productivity means more work done by an existing worker. In fact, some sources claim that Productivity has cost more jobs than offshoring!

2. You say that the recession is an exception to productivity increases? Really, you should crack a book sometime instead of telling others to do so. Practice what you preach, eh? Productivity was down in 2008 but up in 2009.

This does not, however, translate into bunches and bushel baskets full of low paid, low wage, salt of the earth manufacturing jobs for the poor huddled masses. It translates into a few highly skilled and well paid workers, engineers and technicians.

A few highly skilled and well paid workers, engineers and technicians… and then what about the rest? You left that out. Probably intentionally, hoping that I wouldn’t call you on your misleading load of claptrap.

If you brought, say, clothing manufacturing back to the US it wouldn’t mean that we’d have manufacturing plants stuffed to the gills with workers, busily working away like good little bees. We don’t build stuff on the Chinese model anymore, and we won’t be building things on that model ever again. Why? Because the average US citizen isn’t willing to work for $.25/hour for 14-16 hours a day plus all the hazardous smoke and chemicals they can breathe or eat.

That’s another problem of yours… you seem to believe that the Chinese model is in any way a valid model of production. Countries that go by that model are not countries we should be trading with.

As I said before we need to end trade with low wage nations and lower trade barriers with more equitable nations like Canada and Europe.

Dude…robots already do much of the automated assembly and manufacturing in the US. This isn’t fantasy…it’s ‘reality’, at least it’s the reality that the rest of us have to live in. Have you been living under a rock for the past 4 decades? This isn’t exactly anything new.

Yes, but your wild-eyed fantasy that auto manufacturing will be totally automated is not the same as robots doing much of the automated assembly.

As to the rest of your claptrap, the less said about it the better. It’s basically futuristic fantasy at this point.

Just like your claptrap that if manufacturing jobs won’t come back if we tariff China and that automation will take all those jobs away.

It’s not going to impact us in the short or medium term, has nothing to do with the fact that the US (and most other modern nations) already rely heavily on automation , and it has nothing to do with this discussion.

Correction: you like to fantasize and speculate about the future (automation taking over all manufacturing) but you don’t like it when others do.

But then I have little care of what you like. And increasingly little care for what you have to say. Your points are hackneyed, hypocritical and getting to be downright hopeless.

The investor class is the highest class. The corporate heads are the next group. The business owners below that and the workers below them. The lowest class of all is the unemployed/homeless.

‘Workers’, of course, based on the above, would run the gamut of white and blue collar, say from millions a year to $10’s of thousands a year. That’s a BIG category. And why would business owners be above ‘workers’?

Wait, are you ignorant of the definition of ‘worker’? It’s synonymous with ‘employee’. Oh, I see. You’re smoke-screening.

Above all ‘workers’, or just above their ‘employees’? Do they get some sort of card or something to indicate their above-ness, or is there a secret handshake or something? If so, where do I get the details, since it’s obvious I’ve been missing out on all this good class warfare stuff…

No, they get to fire workers. That’s a big enough above-ness card. And according to your argument they could kick them out and replace them with robots, at least in the auto manufacturing world. But we know in reality that’s… what was that phrase you used… claptrap? Ah, yes.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@treis

@Le_Jacquelope

Sure it does. We import food, do we not? What happens if we have one of these bad harvests and there is a food embargo? The connection is about as fragile as the Golden Gate Bridge.

Uh, no we do not. The U.S. is by far the largest net exporter of food in the world. We do import some foods that don’t grow in the U.S., or are out of season, but in terms of calorie production we generate much more food than we eat. Perhaps this is why you have such a warped view of the world. You seem to be completely ignorant of basic facts.

You mean the fact that we have 40 million Americans on food stamps and that you’ve shown no mechanism that can cope when the Republicans come into office and nuke these food stamp programs* like they’ve been trying to do?

Nearly overwhelmed means that they weren’t overwhelmed. It means that they were able to meet the demand for their services, albeit with difficulty.

Come back and say that again when there are an extra 40 million people looking for aid at these charities.

Which 5% of Chinese do you think own the cars? The richest 5% or the migrant factory workers? Seriously, come on now.

Show me proof that it’s not both?

As for building a car for China’s working masses, hello? Did you miss the last few posts? China’s working masses are poor. They don’t earn anywhere close to enough to afford even the cheapest possible cars.

I didn’t miss it. I just don’t happen to buy it. And with companies like Tata moving into China your argument just keeps getting weaker and weaker.

Most importantly? I don’t care if no one over there can own a car. They got where they’re at by stealing jobs from the United States and that is going to STOP when our currency declines. I care about American workers.

• That is assuming the Republicans will have the balls to do this. Which, you can argue, they won’t.

[treis]

@Le_Jacquelope

@treis

Uh, no we do not. The U.S. is by far the largest net exporter of food in the world. We do import some foods that don’t grow in the U.S., or are out of season, but in terms of calorie production we generate much more food than we eat. Perhaps this is why you have such a warped view of the world. You seem to be completely ignorant of basic facts.

You mean the fact that we have 40 million Americans on food stamps and that you’ve shown no mechanism that can cope when the Republicans come into office and nuke these food stamp programs* like they’ve been trying to do?

Man, you’re like debating with a chat bot. You take a key word from a post and then just post something randomly related to what I said. Ok, so I guess we are gone from “do we produce enough food” to “oh nos evil Republicans”.

Since we are talking about the future, there is no way I can prove your statement wrong (I see you’ve made no effort to prove it correct). However, I can say that in the 225 years of U.S. history we haven’t had a wave of starvation. 80 years ago, with a much much more conservative government, we went through an economic disaster much worse than what we are experiencing now, and there was no starvation. So while past events don’t prove future results, I am pretty confident that we will always feed our people.

@Le_Jacquelope

Come back and say that again when there are an extra 40 million people looking for aid at these charities.

Ok… meet me back here in 30 years.

@Le_Jacquelope

Show me proof that it’s not both?

I HAVE shown you proof. Chinese factory workers simply do not come close to making enough money to afford a car.

@Le_Jacquelope

As for building a car for China’s working masses, hello? Did you miss the last few posts? China’s working masses are poor. They don’t earn anywhere close to enough to afford even the cheapest possible cars.

I didn’t miss it. I just don’t happen to buy it. And with companies like Tata moving into China your argument just keeps getting weaker and weaker.

You don’t buy that China’s workers are poor? Not after I showed you that their GDP per capita is what ours was 120 years ago. Not after I showed you that the Ford “five dollars a day” in 1914 was 7 times the real pay of Chinese factory workers. Not after I showed you that Chinese workers need to work for a year and a half to afford the cheapest possible car.

Seriously, what level of proof do you need to believe that the Chinese workers are poor?

@Le_Jacquelope

Most importantly? I don’t care if no one over there can own a car. They got where they’re at by stealing jobs from the United States and that is going to STOP when our currency declines. I care about American workers.

That’s spectacular that you only care about Americans, and could give two shits if China starves. The problem is that you just don’t understand anything about economics.

[RickJay]

@Le_Jacquelope

You mean the fact that we have 40 million Americans on food stamps and that you’ve shown no mechanism that can cope when the Republicans come into office and nuke these food stamp programs* like they’ve been trying to do?

That’s a nice diversion, but the fact remains the United States is a net food exporter, and two messages ago you honestly believed exactly the opposite.

So far,

1. You’ve stated the USA consumes more food than it produces, which is false.
2. You’ve claimed Henry Ford raised wages so that his workers could afford his cars, which is false.
3. You seem to be claiming the Chinese are richer than Americans, which is false.
4. You’ve claimed the recession was caused by offshoring, which is false (and amazing, considering how much coverage there was of the actual cause.)

You really do need to become acquainted with more facts. If you aren’t even aware of the fact that the United States is a net food exporter or that the average Chinese is really, really poor, you’re way behind the eight ball here.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@RickJay

@Le_Jacquelope

You mean the fact that we have 40 million Americans on food stamps and that you’ve shown no mechanism that can cope when the Republicans come into office and nuke these food stamp programs* like they’ve been trying to do?

That’s a nice diversion, but the fact remains the United States is a net food exporter, and two messages ago you honestly believed exactly the opposite.

So far,

1. You’ve stated the USA consumes more food than it produces, which is false.

Wrong. I said more than once that there is a food distribution problem in the USA. We have plenty of food; we just have a hard time getting it to the poor, and when more people wind up coming to the food banks it’s only going to get harder.

We’re on the verge of some major unrest, and I’ve cited that as well.

2. You’ve claimed Henry Ford raised wages so that his workers could afford his cars, which is false.

That is not false. It was stated by him as one of his reasons for doing so, right in his memoirs.

3. You seem to be claiming the Chinese are richer than Americans, which is false.

“Seem”? That’s a weasel-out argument if there ever was one. I’ll say one thing though: their per capita debt is less than ours.

4. You’ve claimed the recession was caused by offshoring, which is false (and amazing, considering how much coverage there was of the actual cause.)

I also showed you citations that wages stagnated prior to this crash, and that offshoring had a lot to do with it. People turned to amassing credit debt over the last 30 years since their wages had stagnated against inflation. I did point this out, too. This is what caused the crash. Offshoring was one of the culprits.

You need to stop living in denial. Offshoring has done nothing good for this country except lower the prices on some goods; goods that are less affordable than they were before. (Judging by the fact that wages are not keeping up with inflation… but I’ve cited this more than once.)

Look, it’s obvious that no matter how many facts and cites are put your way, you’re going to shield yourself behind denial and distort someone’s argument in order to dismiss it. I can lead you to water but I can’t make you drink.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@treis

Seriously, what level of proof do you need to believe that the Chinese workers are poor?

I need proof that they can’t buy cars. Not that they’re poor.

That’s spectacular that you only care about Americans, and could give two shits if China starves.

I care about my country and my people. No one else seems to care about us. Our working class is being set adrift while the rich suck us dry. Is China coming to bail out our workers? No. We’re sending them foreign aid for God’s sake and they’re blowing us off the economic map at the same time.

I will always take care of my own before someone else. If you have a problem with that then it’s your problem… it will never be mine.

The problem is that you just don’t understand anything about economics.

You are in no position to question anyone’s understanding of economics. Plus, I understand history, and history has shown that offshoring has provided America ZERO benefits. You have failed to show any benefits. There are, however, a ton of drawbacks, which you for some reason continue to attempt to deny.

[treis]

@Le_Jacquelope

@treis

Seriously, what level of proof do you need to believe that the Chinese workers are poor?

I need proof that they can’t buy cars. Not that they’re poor.

And the fact that only 5% of the country owns a car, and the fact that factory workers would need to work 18 months just to pay for the cheapest new car is insufficient why?

@Le_Jacquelope

I care about my country and my people. No one else seems to care about us. Our working class is being set adrift while the rich suck us dry. Is China coming to bail out our workers? No. We’re sending them foreign aid for God’s sake and they’re blowing us off the economic map at the same time.

You have such a warped view of reality. No one cares about us because we are basically the richest in the world. I don’t see many Americans fretting over Bills Gates or Warren Buffets well-being, so why should the rest of the world concern themselves with us?

By the way, are we done with starving people in America? Apparently I’ve sufficiently proved my case and all you have left is to ignore it and move onto other things.

[John_Mace]

Folks, there is no point in debating with Economic Creationists. Especially with someone who is so all over the place that he will post, in the same thread:

China has massive trade barriers. They are highly prosperous.

…low wage hell holes like China…

Spewing out whatever nonsense he thinks will support his argument at the time. We get this from newbie creationists all the time, coming in here out of the blue trying to convince us that evolution is bunk. This is no different.

Keep up the good fight if you have the patience, but the only things I can think of posting at this point would only be appropriate in the Pit.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@John_Mace

Folks, there is no point in debating with Economic Creationists. Especially with someone who is so all over the place that he will post, in the same thread:

China has massive trade barriers. They are highly prosperous.

They have MASSIVE job growth. We do not. Are you denying that? They achieve this by undercutting the hell out of American wages.

Keep up the good fight if you have the patience, but the only things I can think of posting at this point would only be appropriate in the Pit.

I’ve run out of patience dealing with your defense of offshoring, which has absolutely ruined our economy.

The outright ignorance of you saying
“The US was the only major industrialized country that didn’t have its infrastructure blown to smithereens…”

and
“First of all, I don’t think countries compete with each other, economically.”

shows that you’re not worth the time.

You need to bone up on your history. You’re far from being able to talk about economics.

[XT]

@John Mace

Folks, there is no point in debating with Economic Creationists. Especially with someone who is so all over the place that he will post, in the same thread:

True. It’s a bit like trying to ‘debate’ a Truther. No point in trying to convert the faithful…

-XT

[XT]

@Le Jacquelope

I need proof that they can’t buy cars. Not that they’re poor.

Can you do math? You were shown earlier what the average worker in China makes. Well, here is a cite showing that cars cost MORE in China than here (and the average worker in China couldn’t afford a car in the US).

MR. Wang waited two years to buy a car in the expectation that prices would fall on China’s entering the WTO. This was not, however, the case. Cars are as costly as ever. Auto trade dealers know all too well the consumer wait-and-see approach to car purchases. One dealer at the Beijing Yayuncun auto trade market told our reporter: “Although crowds of people come to the auto market every week, they keep their purses tightly shut.”

Now that standards of living in China have generally improved, it is not so out of the ordinary to buy a private car. In 2002, the number of cars in civil use reached 2,510,000, 60 percent of which were privately owned – a figure that jumped to 90 percent in Beijing. According to experts, China’s prime time for private car ownership is imminent, but consumers do not agree. They have strong reservations about the fancy prices of cars in China. Beijing Yayuncun auto trade market, China’s biggest, held an online survey on the auto market in China, in co-operation with eight Internet websites and seven media agencies. Results showed that 87 percent of consumers believe that car prices in China are too high. People have a strong desire for cars, but lack the necessary cash to buy.

Overseas motorists have expressed surprise at the price of cars in China, as the cost here is at least double that overseas. The new Honda Wagon, for example, retails for RMB 259,800 in China, while in the US it costs only USD 15,000 – about RMB 121,000. Does this mean that Chinese people have become so rich they can buy a car as a matter of course? Not according to the State Statistics Bureau. During the first quarter of 2003, the per capita monthly disposable income of urban residents was about RMB 784.8, indicating a per capita yearly income of no more than RMB9,000. A household must, therefore, save for eight or ten years in order to buy a car priced at RMB 100,000.

Though really it shouldn’t take a rocket scientists to see that if you compare the numbers of cars on the roads in China to the numbers of people that there aren’t very many cars per capita. China’s numbers of new sales SOUNDS high, until you consider how many people live there, and then consider that not very long ago they didn’t have many cars at all.

Of course, this has all been explained to you at least twice by other posters, so I don’t have very high expectations that it will sink in this time either, but what the hell…I’m just sitting here waiting for a plane and don’t have anything better to do.

-XT

[XT]

@Le Jacquelope

They have MASSIVE job growth. We do not. Are you denying that? They achieve this by undercutting the hell out of American wages.

Do you have a cite? Context is everything. ‘Massive job growth’ (even when you capitalize MASSIVE) could mean they are going from a mostly agrarian society to an industrialized one…which means we had our MASSIVE Job Growth™ over a century ago. It could mean that they are going from high double digit unemployment to simply double digit unemployment, or it could mean any of a number of other things. You’d need to show MASSIVE job growth with more than an assertion and the ability to hold the shift key down.

I’ve run out of patience dealing with your defense of offshoring, which has absolutely ruined our economy.

You’ve yet to do more than rant and rave and appeal to ignorance in proving your case that it has ruined the economy. Considering that the current recession and high levels of unemployment (for US…in Europe these would be normal) aren’t even peripherally caused by offshoring, you have some work to do to make your case I’d say. Simply saying you are out of patience dealing with something you obviously don’t understand and can’t grasp is understandable, but it doesn’t really score you many points in the debate.

“The US was the only major industrialized country that didn’t have its infrastructure blown to smithereens…”

Um…ok. Who else was a major industrial power in the post WWII era who didn’t have the crap blown out of their infrastructure? Saying it’s ‘outright ignorance’ really isn’t helpful unless you offer some sort of alternative. Going to be hard to do, since I can’t think of any major industrial powers in the immediate post WWII period who hadn’t had the crap blown out of their infrastructure…which is why the US pretty much had a monopoly on manufacturing until about the 60’s. Everyone else was rebuilding.

“First of all, I don’t think countries compete with each other, economically.”

They don’t. But again, you don’t offer any illumination of your point…you merely assert that this is stupid and obvious. Even in countries like Japan the companies compete against each other…and they are highly controlled by government officials with vested interests.

shows that you’re not worth the time.

Again, I’d say the converse is where the mark is.

You need to bone up on your history. You’re far from being able to talk about economics.

-XT

[Le_Jacquelope]

Uhm, Xtisme, you can quit now, whatever it is you’re saying. I’ve already grown tired of your nonsense arguments.

China is growing at the expense of America’s workers. That will stop soon when the US dollar collapses.

Those jobs will come back and none of your arguments, or the “free market” will stop it from happening.

[XT]

@Le Jacquelope

Uhm, Xtisme, you can quit now, whatever it is you’re saying. I’ve already grown tired of your nonsense arguments.

That’s nice but I wasn’t writing for your benefit, since you are like one of the faithful…there is no reaching such as you.

China is growing at the expense of America’s workers. That will stop soon when the US dollar collapses.

Your powers of prediction are…well, bloody awful. But then so is your grasp of this subject, so it all works out.

Those jobs will come back and none of your arguments, or the “free market” will stop it from happening.

You wouldn’t be wanting to place any large wagers on that manufacturing ever coming back to the US, would you? I’m also willing to take odds on the US dollar collapsing. My sole hope is that you are holding your breath for both events, as it will be amusing to see you turning blue…

-XT

[magellan01]

@Le_Jacquelope

@John_Mace

Folks, there is no point in debating with Economic Creationists. Especially with someone who is so all over the place that he will post, in the same thread:

They have MASSIVE job growth. We do not. Are you denying that? They achieve this by undercutting the hell out of American wages.

Keep up the good fight if you have the patience, but the only things I can think of posting at this point would only be appropriate in the Pit.

I’ve run out of patience dealing with your defense of offshoring, which has absolutely ruined our economy.

The outright ignorance of you saying
“The US was the only major industrialized country that didn’t have its infrastructure blown to smithereens…”

and
“First of all, I don’t think countries compete with each other, economically.”

shows that you’re not worth the time.

You need to bone up on your history. You’re far from being able to talk about economics.

Uh, just so you know. Even people who often disagree with John Mace, like me, are going to chuckle at the notion that you can school him in anything. I suggest a different strategy.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@magellan01

Uh, just so you know. Even people who often disagree with John Mace, like me, are going to chuckle at the notion that you can school him in anything. I suggest a different strategy.

I’ve no interest in that. His arguments have done a good job of burying themselves.