Oh dear...I kind of agree with the "racist"

In My Humble Opinion
81

It really doesn’t take a genius to figure it out. Imagine if you started watching BET one day and discovered how a common trope was how much they hate white people’s names, and how illiterate/abusive/dumb we are for naming our kids what we do. Imagine if they kept talking about, for our own good mind you, we really ought to be giving our kids nice black names. You know, so we don’t limit their future by confining them to white culture. Wouldn’t your first thought be “Well, where do they get the nerve…”

Also, recent African immigrants are not really a part of “African-American” culture, which refers to the culture of people who’s ancestors were slaves in America. African-American culture has a shared history and shared culture which these immigrants aren’t a part of…kind of like how we wouldn’t say a recently arrived German guy is really a part of American culture. His kids may be, but just because a lot of Americans came from Germany doesn’t mean Germans are Americans. We have a shared American heritage that makes us who we are and shapes our culture.

It’s kind of a hot topic in Oakland right now. the African immigrants aren’t really too pleased with African-American culture. Their kids, growing up in predominately African-American places, often embrace it- at the least it makes more sense than embracing white culture, and they are a little more accepted. The African-Americans are suspicious of the African immigrants. The whites continue to be baffled that people with black skin can be anything but “a black” and lump them all together, which kind of pisses the African immigrants off and makes them grumpy about whites. They thought they were coming here to get the American dream like any other immigrant, and didn’t expect that white America would just say “Oh, you a black guy just like Tyrone over there. Go hang out with him. Leave me alone.” Meanwhile the Nation of Islam and the regular Islamic immigrants are starting fights…

These aren’t misspelling, honey. They are spelled exactly how they were meant to be spelled. And they do represent a family connection and heritage- Modern African-American culture. “Shaniqua” has way more relevant to a modern African-American than either a white name or a traditional African name. It reaches back in to the history of African-Americans.

Where they lost their African languages. Where slave masters gave them names that were creative and romantic sounding but wouldn’t overlap with the names of their white acquaintances. Where they developed an affection for France because some French blacks were achieving influence in the world. Where they looked to Africa and saw Islam, which is a bigger force in much of Africa than traditional cultures. Where they lived in segregated neighborhoods and developed a parallel culture to white America.

The “D’” and “La” prefix comes from France. The use of words like “Unique” and “Precious” come from slave naming practices. The whole prefix and apostrophe thing is a nod to Islam. These names reflect a culture. This stuff isn’t any more “made up” than any other name.

What is so hard to see about that?

Anyway, I wasn’t named “Jennifer” because my mom had some overwhelming connection to Welsh history. I was named that because there was a popular movie out with that name in it, just like the other ten billion Jennifers born in 1980.

82

It’s even worse than that. My husband has experienced “go back to Africa”-type racism at the hands of black Canadians; I’m sure it’s the same or worse in the US.

83

Just perusing the Jewish History Month thread in Great Debates and found a post pertinent to this discussion:

Substitute “American” for “European” and “Blacks” for Jews. Then insert “names” into the list at the end.

Would it be acceptable to suggest that Jewish families would be ill-advised to name their kid Hershel or Bluma?

84

That’s how i remember it too. As a little black kid in the 70’s in Detroit I remember African names being pretty common, as were Dashikis and wooden beads in braided hair.

My youngest son’s name was a result of a debate with my ex wife over this very subject. As we were driving around Lake Merritt my wife was reading me her list of her most recently strung together syllables when I asked ‘What’s wrong with a traditional christian name’? He was Christian from that day onwards.

85

Also, the very concept of a name is different across cultures.

In China, names are a complicated mingling of meaning, astrology and phonetics. A names like “Dianna” is a bigger problem than a name like “Orangejello.”

In Mexico, first names usually pay homage to a saint, and nicknames are used for everyday purposes. The day of the saint you were named after is on par with a birthday as far as importance goes.

In France, names are seen as sort of public property that represents culture. They have a list of names you are allowed to name your kid.

In England, where much of our culture comes from, names have a lot to do with family lines, legitamacy, and heritage. The idea that a specific name should be related to your families hertitage and reflect it’s dignity is not a universal one. The Chinese people of Chinese decent try not to freak out when we name our kids something with unfortunately syllables in it. They people of French decent don’t worry about us not using our names to promote French culture. The people of Mexican descent don’t worry about how impious our naming practices are.

So where do we even get off saying that people of African-American desent ought to conform to our naming practices, our ideal, our puposes and even our prejudices? I hate to say this, but the black people arn’t wandering around thinking “How can I please whitey today?” They arn’t sitting at the hospital thinking “Well yeah it’s a nice name, but the big question is will the white people like it?”

If you want some real puzzling nameslook at this.

86

Thank you for your reply. Being a South Side Chicago Irish boy, I didn’t have much interaction with black kids until I got to high school and even then I don’t remember a lot of “unusual” names.
Now that I’m older I am seeing and hearing more of these names and was just trying to confirm my amateur socio-historical view of black naming conventions.

Slight hijack - is it appropriate for me to use the word “black” or is it supposed to be “Africa-American”?

And why is it still called the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ? Shouldn’t it be the NAAAA? Naaaah. :stuck_out_tongue:

87

Well, you do want them to get ahead, right? And at real stuff, not banking and Hollywood.

88

Hmm, honestly (speaking as a person with a made up name) it’s really not that big of a deal. It generally takes less than ten seconds to spell a name. Do you pity people with hard to spell last names? Did my parents’ decision cause me to be discriminated against? Maybe. As someone else said though, I don’t think I’d have faired much better putting the name Paul or something on my resume, since I’d still have to go into the interview with a black face. **Even sven ** said everything that I would have concerning this thread.

89

Don’t forget the crack addiction and the fact that the child is a product of incest.

Oh I know, now you’re going to tell me this was some specific white girl that had a baby at 14 so you’re not being a classist or racist or anything, but you’ve dragged in so many irrelevant anecdotes confused with stupid stereotypes to muddy the whole issue that I can’t really keep track. Have any of your anecdotes actually involved a black person? They’ve all been whites (or one person who goes in the “other” category). And all you’ve convinced me of is that you’re not just bigoted in the abstract, but you’re equally nasty about people you actually know. Your ultimate “point” ends up being that anybody that doesn’t name their kid Mary Elizabeth or John Michael is ignorant human waste - which is completely retarded, and the product of a horribly provincial imagination, jam-packed with vicious stereotypes about blacks and poor whites.

No, he would have disqualified her because she was black. Your boss violated the law in a huge way, you didn’t call him on it or tell him it was unacceptable, and now you’re blaming the woman’s parents? That’s really nice. You could have quit. You could have reported him. You could have threatened to quit or report him. Your boss and you are the problem. By the way I’m not being a total fru fru idealist here, I had a boss like this and I argued with him, told him what he was doing was unacceptable (I got literally screamed at for doing this) and I ultimately quit when he persisted. You do know the one about “all that is necessary for evil to triumph…”

First of all, by excluding sports and entertainment you put bogus parameters on the question, because the “Shaniqua” type naming system has only been going on in full force since the 70s for the most part, so people with these names are under 35 or maybe 40. That means they’re not going to have risen to fame in politics or business yet (and let’s face it, there are precious few prominent blacks in business to begin with). There are plenty of “urban” names in entertainment and sports, of course, where people become famous before 35. Seriously, how many black people under 40 - even with traditional names - can you name who aren’t in sports or entertainment?

Secondly, nobody’s disputing that the more black you seem, the more you’ll be discriminated against, and the more you can convince people you’re white the less you’ll be discriminated against. But that doesn’t mean that it’s not completely racist to expect blacks to seem more white.

Nevertheless, a quick search of the web will still give you a decent list of people with black sounding (or at least oddly spelled) names even with your restrictions:

Zora Neale Hurston
Barack Obama
Condolleeza Rice
Togo West (cabinet member under Clinton)
Langston Hughes
Audre Lorde
Charlayne Hunter Gault
Oprah Winfrey
Tavis Smiley
Joycelyn Elders
Aylwin Lewis - president and CEO of KMART
Coretta King
Thurgood Marshall
U.S. Congressmen: Chaka Fattah, Alcee Hastings, Kweisi Mfume, Mervyn Dymally, Alonzo Ransier, Cardiss Collins, Edolphus Towns, Alton Waldon

OK I misread what you were saying. I thought you were saying that “Shaniqua” is seen as uneducated because most blacks are uneducated. You were saying that “Shaniqua” is seen as uneducated because only uneducated people name their kids it , that it’s not because it’s a black thing.

I think this a problem of your not living in the U.S. Shaniqua here would most definitely be seen as a black name first and a poor name second (and mostly because you figure black=poor)

Yup, I definitely did in one sense, but it was sort of conscious. There’s a difference between making a factual statement “blacks get a crappy education” or even just connecting black culture with ghetto culture - and using it to insult “we all know blacks are uneducated.” It was kind of snotty pc of me though.

Well it depends on how you’re jerrymandering your areas. “Black people have less education on average” or even “most black people are less educated” are different statements from “the less educated are mostly black” - which is on the whole not so, unless you narrow your “areas” to black neighborhoods.

90

Just wanted to say how much I agree with this. None of my ancestors owned a slave (got here in the Depression). I don’t appreciate you saying “We” did all of this horrible stuff, because “We” didn’t, sven. So don’t go trying to put guilt on my shoulders. I’m sorry it happened, I wish it hadn’t, but there’s no slave blood on my hands.

91

I’m sorry, please explain to me just what is wrong with Rhiannon? It’s a very old Celtic/Welsh name.

92

I figured I was in trouble when I saw who had the last post. It may very well be very old Welsh/Celtic name. So old, that it was forgotten for centuries, until it was rescued from obscurity by Transatlantic Prog-Rock. Outside of the context of defending the right of black people to name their kids whatever they like, I have never made fun of that name. I once had a downstairs neighbor who made fun of the name Takeisha, and had a daughter named Rhiannon. Again, I was raised to believe that children could only be named after canonized saints, so I have little patience for people who get fussy about naming conventions, and may begin to channel Father LeVecque.

93

Most of these don’t apply to what we are talking about. Actually, I will say that none of them follow the naming convention that is being discussed here. If I stretch really hard, I would pick Charlayne Gault, Audre Lorde, and, just barely, Coretta King as being the type of name we are discussing here. The others don’t apply at all.

All we are really talking about is trash names. Some white subcultures have plenty of that and we certainly come down on them hard and swift for it. Other cultures do as well. No one has a monopoly.

Judgements on names are not independent of the culture that uses them. For example, I doubt that “Guapker” would be a chosen name for normal girls anywhere. Why not? You have never heard that name before because I just made it up and yet you have an opinion on the type of person that would have it. How about “Froitilang” for a nice masculine boy? What is wrong with that made up name? No one has ever had it so it must be perfectly neutral right?

Obviously that is not correct. Sounds carry meaning even if we have never heard them before. Humans are built to respond to sounds in certain ways and even new sounds carry meanings. Poor black names are made up on purpose to carry a connotation that the rest of society considers less than ideal. That can come back to bite their kids in the ass. Simple.

94

What??? How are Charlayne, Audre and Coretta “trash names,” but not Oprah, Joycelyn, Condolleeza, Zora, Chaka or Tavis?

The connotation being that the kid is black. Which white people do consider less than ideal and which can bite people on the ass, you’re right.

95

My disdain for what I consider to be low class names is not limited to any race or ethnicity. If that makes me a snob, so be it. Some sounds just don’t sound right together–that opinion says nothing about the person who carries that collection of sounds as a name. I met a woman the other day with a lovely made up name: Syriana (not sure how it’s spelled, btw). Turns out her mother loved Cyriano Debergerac (sorry for the mangled name)–and named her daughter her version of the female equivalent. Now, I am not up on Italian, so don’t know if this is accurate, but it is a pretty name. Just saying that not all made up names are BAD, in my book.

Like it or not, people are judged not only by their skin color, but by their appearance, their demeanor and also their name. If you write me and sign your name Pat O’Brien–I am going to assume that you have some Irish in you somewhere, if not actually a citizen of that country. You could be of any race, gender or ethnicity, but Irish is the first thing that comes to mind when I hear/see that name. You could be a black Vietnamese adopted child (as the Pat O’Brien that I know is…)but to those who don’t know him, his appearance comes as a surprise–I don’t see this as racist. We can’t help but make assumptions with what little info we have. The problem comes when we don’t keep an open mind, no matter the name–once the person is in front of us or when we refuse to question those assumptions.

Again, it is racist if I hear or see that name and make assumptions about the character or abiities that that name might represent–and I act on those assumptions.
As we all know, assumptions are found faulty every minute of the day–and that’s a good thing. I know someone at work whose name is Toneika. Not Toneeka or Tonika, Toneika. She’s great-so what? Her being nice or being a complete bitch is irrelevant.

RE my pity of the kids and their name spellings. Most people don’t change their last names–and most people realize that a difficult last name is outside of someone’s control. I know a woman who was reluctant to go from Smith to Aboushousha-because she knew that noone would know how to pronounce it or spell it. She did indeed change her name, and she was absolutely correct, but she copes.
BUT.
Given names are just that–GIVEN. When I hear of a Unique Watson or an Autumn Rain Watson or Wadine Jones(love the baby’s named a bad, bad thing site!)–I know that baby had at least one person who didn’t think about the impact that name would have on the people Uniqe/ Autumn/Wadine has to deal with daily–ie, the rest of the world (or at least American culture).
I dislike that Hispanics name their boys Jesus, too. Does that make me racist? Why don’t they just call him God? Drives me nuts–but I make no claim as to any characteristic re any Jesus I may meet. I am not saying that they are bad people or (fill in stereotype of your choice here)–it means I don’t like their name choice. Since I am not rude enough to share my opinion of their name with them, I see no offense here. Same with Shaneika or Torquell or Antwan (I have yet to see a good defense of misspelled “regular” names–is that also a show of “black solidarity” or is that rampant ignorance on the part of individuals? If Antwan is supposed to show French heritage, why not spell it Antoine?)

I can relate about the “current” African immigrants disdain for African American culture–several of my cow-orkers have school age and HS aged kids–they do NOT approve of the gangsta rap and its culture one bit, to highlight one small slice of AA culture in America. They go to great lengths to protect their kids from it. They also emphasize education and discipline to their kids–these are strict parents, indeed (the ones I know). This is all good, to my mind. They may well be the immigrants that rocket to success here–more power to them.

The social issues of poverty, institutionalized racism and poor education are ills indeed. In a way, I can sympathize with the parents who want their kids to make a mark in some way on the world–and think that a unique name will do so. I don’t think it works out that way at all. I think there is more at play than just base prejudice–people in general are not comfortable with very odd names–and odd spellings add to the discomfort. Just as a white woman who names her daughter Desiree is cutting her off at the knees, so is the black woman who names her daughter Laquasha (actual name of an aide at work).

In short, you CAN name your kid just about anything --but people are also free to judge that name, good or bad. Enough “bad” and a name falls from favor: Hubert or Ethel, anyone? Some names are just plain trendy–Ashley, Emily, Megan, Madison, Lauren–those were big when I was starting my family. Just as Kim, Terry, Linda, Jane and Deidre were big back in the '60’s.

RE Chomondoley–I may not know how to spell it, but the spelling of it is standardized. UNLIKE Caitlyn, Katelyn, Catelin, Caitlin, Kaitlynne etc. (I do know it’s pronounced Chumley–agh! ) :slight_smile:

Noone seems to be able to spell my name (guess what it is)–my maiden name was misspelled constantly, and my married name (only 5 letters!) is too. But the spelling of my name is not unique in English–it is spelled differently in French. Such is the way of the world…

96

Well sure. The problem comes in when we assume that Pat’s an alcoholic.

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Would you rather she pronounce it Toneyeka because of the ei? I’m not sure what you’re getting at here.

Most people don’t change their first names either. Yes, given names are given, to someone by someone else. It really seems like giving in to the racists to expect Jaquan or Aquanetta to change their name to better fit in. I’m not saying that’s what you mean, of course. A name is a large part of who most people are. If there were a pill that blacks could take to make them lighter, should they take it just to become more acceptable to white America? Extreme example, of course, but still. Would people recommend that immigrants choose english names so as not to alarm Americans?

I’m not a fan of choosing your own spelling either, but I don’t worry about it.

Perhaps you have a point with Desiree, but I doubt that Siege’s boss would have hired Sheniqua even if she’d been called Sharon.

97

When I went to public health clinics to save on money, there were many whites with very uneducated-sounding made-up names, so I tend to agree that it’s a class and not a racial divide. Seeing “Nigel” or “Tamira” on a resume simply doesn’t elicit quite the same negative connotation.

98

Yes. Racist. Any line of thinking that says “well, I’m personally not a racist, but other people are racist so we should cave into their demands” is unacceptable. Maybe a more subtle form of racism, but it’s racism nonetheless.

99

Couldn’t they go the 133t route and just go with Angel<3?

100

Joshua is very popular boy’s name these days. Do you have the same disdain for Christians who name their son Joshua? If not, why not? (Presumably you wouldn’t have the same problem with Jews who give Joshua as a name, since there’s no implication of divine status in that case). How about Mary or Maria as a girl’s name?

Cyrano de Bergerac. He was French.