While I lean heavily toward agreeing with those who advocate paying the auto-gratuity as posted (say, on a menu), please note this arrest for not paying a required tip and the outcome of the case (3 links, one incident).
Well, this is why we have things like customary tipping practices and auto-gratuities: so the issue of how much the customer owes can be settled in a hassle-free standard way without lots of mulling and musing and arguing over the underlying reasons, exceptional circumstances, individual situations, and so forth.
Customers who “just want to go out to eat” without fretting “about all the issues that go on behind the scene” should just pay the amount that’s expected of them. Look at the figure on the bill, calculate an additional 20% of it (unless the bill includes auto-grat), put down the money, leave. No worrying required.
Well, you can’t have it both ways. If you object to paying the amount you’re charged at a restaurant, then you’re the one who’s opening up the issue as debatable.
That’s when all these other questions like whether a tip is really a voluntary tip or a service charge, what the appropriate amount should be for tipping on alcohol, whether providing less service at the customer’s request obligates a server to take a smaller tip, whether auto-gratuity charges are appropriate, how obligated you are to pay a stated tip amount because the subordinate staff and the waiter’s taxes are affected by it, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., enter into the debate.
It sounds like you want to maintain the freedom to dispute or complain about tip charges you consider excessive, but not have to think about any of the issues or arguments on the other side of the question, because that would “ruin the fun”.
Sorry, but if you express a desire to short-change other people out of what they expect you to pay them for goods and services received, they are likely to respond by giving you something to think about. If you don’t want to think about these things, just pay what they tell you you owe them.
Well, it’s not really fair. But that’s part of why there are good jobs and crappy jobs. Anyone in any line of work is going to make more money catering to the wealthy than to the poor.
Just in case it’s against the rules, I won’t post a link. But at this point, I think everyone reading this thread should google “Mr. Pink Tipping YouTube” and watch the download. I just did, and it’s hilarious. A lot like this thread…
That’s when you sit there and occupy your table for another 2 hours afterwards, so they can’t seat their next patron…then ask for your change again…they will GLADLY give it to you then.
I’ll send you a PM.
The Times article you linked to said they didn’t leave a small tip, they left nothing and also shorted the check. The man arrested claimed he meant to leave a 10% tip. Wonder if they would have been arrested for just the auto-grat violation.
Exactly. Which is why I don’t think it was a mistake for the manager to refuse to accommodate them; would YOU want them to become regulars? Not me.
You’re correct. The NYTimes article does say he didn’t leave anything, even though he says he left 10%.
Link #2 has a fully-quoted article at the top that only mentions his not leaving an adequate tip and does not mention the restaurant’s position that he underpaid the bill or left no tip at all (original from an unavailable AP report).
Link #3, here, which I originally meant to post (but repeated link #2), this, says the prosecutors threw out the case. It also doesn’t speak to whether he originally underpaid the actual bill.
“Prosecutors tossed the charges after determining that restaurants don’t have the legal right to require diners to pay an 18 percent tip for a large party.”
My post was in response to Martin Hyde’s wonderment about cops getting involved and/or arresting someone in this situation. Ultimately, in this one example, a determination was made by prosecutors that restaurants do not have a legal right to a required gratuity.
Sorry for the wrong third link and not explaining the reason for the 3 links.
Actually, there’s a lot of truth to that. If two waiters both provide polite and attentive service to groups that are the same size at the same restaurant, but one group orders all Prime Rib and caviar while the other ones orders salads and nachos, is it fair that one waiter goes home at night with significantly more money than the other?
Clearly, it is not, but it’s a system we all accept. In particular, note that the cost of the most expensive entree is usually at most 3x or 4x more than the cost of the cheapest entree (at a given restaurant). Whereas, the cost of the most expensive wine bottle can be 100x more than the cost of the cheapest one.
At a restaurant which had one of those gimmick dishes (the $50,000 burger with gold powder in it or something), should some random waiter get a $10,000 %20 tip for doing absolutely no extra work, compared to the waiter at the next table?
Tipping should be a reward for the level of service given. In general, tipping based on a proportion of the check kinda-sorta-works, because:
(a) the more dishes you order, the more work for the server, and more dishes = more money
(b) the more expensive the restaurant, the higher quality service you expect, and the more auxiliary support staff there are
The system breaks down, however, when there are individual menu items which are way-out-of-proportion expensive compared to other ones, be they $50,000 burgers or a $1000 bottle of wine next to a $10 one on the menu.
That I am not aware of. Basically, the system is broken. If tips are money that really has to be paid because not doing so dicks innocent people out of taxes, then they should just be part of the bill.
I’m a generous tipper (really! I am! This is all just a hypothetical discussion!), but I strongly dislike the existence of a system which places weird financial obligations and consequences on a decision that I believe I am making out of generosity/appreciation.
Max IME, rarely do folks get paid the same for (essentially) doing the same work, and not just in the restaurant fields. Data entry clerks have widely divergent wages, janitors can make anywhere from minimum wage to, well, lots more, depending on where they work. It’s not just the ‘tipping’ aspect of it. Hell, my job title is “director” and I make substantially less than other ED’s around 'cause of factors like “size of agency” vs. quantity/ quality of work.
My favorite tipping story (that I was a part of) went like this:
We’re at a restaurant that we go to quite frequently. We bring a bottle of wine, and after the meal pay the bill. The bill had a corkage fee, which I expected. The waitress takes our money to go make change, then comes back with a higher bill and this message: She forgot that the wine was as expensive as it was, and she was going to have to charge us a higher corkage fee than she had the first time.
We look at each other. WTF? First of all, I haven’t heard of a corkage fee based on the value of the wine. This is not an expensive place, btw, and they have a shitty wine list (which is why we brought our own). Second, in my book if you make a mistake like that, you eat it. I tell the waitress that I think it’s pretty unreasonable, especially since we already paid the bill, and that she was basically telling us we shouldn’t patronize this place in the future. She gives some lame excuse.
Someone else in my party gets pissed and tells her, calmly: Go ahead and charge us whatever amount you want to have taken out of your tip.
I think she was not a native English speaker, so the zigger was lost on her. I got a good laugh out of that, though. We paid the new bill, and give her a nominal tip.
Isn’t it? Whoever it was was talking about how at the places where he’s a regular he gets drinks and sometimes food comped. Sometimes bartenders comp your drinks. Sometimes the nice Thai ladies bring me new and different little nibbles to try at the Thai Lotus. Nothing wrong with any of that, I just thought your comment was a little weird.
Yes, but you are talking about something entirely different, which is different jobs in the same field with different fixed salaries/wages, presumably with a free labor market of people applying for those jobs, etc.
I’m talking about two people who both presumably might be just making do and really need every last cent, who both go into the same job, at the same wage, in the same place, providing the same service, and one of them randomly gets paid a LOT more than the other… particularly given that the system theoretically has this level of flexibility in order to reward better service.
And it’s not just a case of “wah, I don’t want to tip more for ordering something super-expensive”. If some dish is super-cheap for some reason (ie, the restaurant is running a promotion and selling steaks for $1 to people on their birthdays instead of the usual $50), the amount of work the waiter put into serving that $1 steak is the same amount the waiter at the next table is putting in for that customer’s $50 steak.
Apparently some places do it but it isn’t usual.
That seems kinda harsh. I can see shaving her tip somewhat to express displeasure with her carelessness in not checking the corkage fee properly the first time, but expecting her to pay the difference between her mistaken amount and the correct amount out of her own pocket?
Shit, if I were a billing secretary and I accidentally typed a wrong digit in a figure on an invoice, I sure wouldn’t be happy if the customer expected me personally to cover the difference instead of just paying the corrected bill. Yeah, I can see why he might complain to my supervisor about their stupid careless secretary, and I’d get hauled on the carpet and have to wait a while for my next raise, but it wouldn’t seem fair to expect me literally to pay for the amount of my mistake with my own personal funds.
I can’t say I’ve never encountered this attitude among restaurant customers before, though. I was out to dinner once with a group of about ten colleagues, and we were all expressing pleased surprise at how reasonable the bill turned out to be when I noticed that the waiter (or whoever) had added up the figures wrong and the amount was short by $50 or so. I called the waiter over and showed him the mistake and he brought back a corrected bill. And I was shocked to find myself getting dirty looks and grumbles from a few of my colleagues, who sincerely felt that since the waiter made the error, they were only obligated to pay the incorrectly calculated cost, not the correct cost.
I have to say I find it a little bit hard to respect that attitude. It seems rather to smack of taking advantage of somebody else’s honest error to get out of paying what you legitimately owe.
Of course, maybe in the case you describe, the error in the corkage fee was minor enough so that paying the difference wouldn’t have cost your waitress much more than having you dock her tip a bit for carelessness, so it’s six of one and half a dozen of the other. But taking this for a general policy, where a simple mistake in the bustle of running around serving customers and totting up bills can end up costing a waitperson dozens of dollars if not more…ugh. Just kinda ugh.
(If I’d been your waitress in that situation, what I’d have done is tell you that I made a mistake and the corkage fee was really supposed to be $x more than I originally told you, but please don’t worry about it because you’ve already paid the bill and the mistake was my fault, I’m just letting you know so you won’t be surprised if they tell you a higher amount next time. With luck, you’d have been impressed enough with my thoughtfulness and honesty and unwillingness to inconvenience the customers that you’d have manned up for a bigger tip and covered the amount I was out of pocket. :))
The really amazing thing about the Mr Pink scene is that 80 year old cataract eyed Lawrence Tierney can tell at a glance that there are six dollars in the pile and not seven 
This is exactly the problem with the tipping method. People constantly insist tipping is voluntary and that it improves the level of service, and those same people will call others assholes and deny responsibility if they get a small tip.
It is either one or the other - a gift, or an obligation. It can’t be both.
If it’s the latter, then it should be spelled out. I dislike scenarios where I leave a 18% tip and think I’m being generous, only to have a waiter think I’m an asshole because he’s expecting 20-25%. Maybe patrons at that restaurant usually do tip 20-25%, but how the hell would I know that? And heaven forbid I be an immigrant who comes from a non-tipping country.
I see what you’re saying, and that happens, but it equals out. Every server in a restaurant is going to wait on a table of two that only orders water and a bowl of soup to share while their coworker has the party of six all getting drinks and apps. But either later on that night, or the next night, it will equal out. Most of us there make pretty close to the same hourly rate. There’s a few of them who make a bit more, most of those are because they’re attractive women, who will ALWAYS make more than guys in this industry, and on top of that they have been there long enough to have lots of regular costumers who request them, so even if they have a full section they might get another table, plus the regulars tip really well (I’ve seen a well over 50% tips on decent sized bills for these people.))
But by and large, we all make about the same.
At cheaper places, you’ll often have 3-4 waitstaff for a hundred people. At high-end restaurants, I’ve seen 6-8 or more waitstaff for a 32 seat restaurant, as well as Captains, bussers, bread servers, water pourers, etc. At cheaper places, the waitstaff often shows up for work right before they start working the floor. At some high-end restaurants, the waitstaff are required to show up 1-1.5 hours before the doors open, and for the first hour of business, many of them are waiting for their first tables to be sat. They spend this time learning the details of the evening’s menu, getting special instructions, often based on who the guests are for the evening, more instructions for any parties, polishing (not washing) glassware, settings, and at some places, even the plates. At many of them the waitstaff might handle 8-12 people, but in pairs, and at many of them, the tip out can be as high as 25% of their take. Tip-pooling (between waitstaff) is also becoming a bit more common at some high-end places, as they expect their staff to cross-over between tables and not insulate themselves in their little section. They often stay after closing and go over any issues that arose during the evening as well.
As for “tossing the plate on the table, followed by a check”, a lot of the prix-fixe places might only take your order for 4 courses, but you often get 8 or even more as they bring little samples and niceties throughout the evening.
While I’m sure there are exceptions, in the places I’m familiar with, with average tickets per person in the $100-150 range, the best waitstaff average $20-30 an hour with a 30ish hour work week, and it’s very inconsistent, as they often make 50% of their money in 2 nights. Not chump change, but they’re not making the killing that many seem to assume in the various train-wreck tipping threads we’ve had here.
As for not tipping on the wine, if memory serves, they are responsible for paying taxes on at least 8% of the cost of alcohol, even if no tip was left. Also, while the waitstaff at the cheap place can fudge a bit on their taxes, at the higher end places, almost all transactions are done with credit cards, so actual tip amounts are passed on to the IRS. Still, if no tip was recorded, they still want their 8%.
PS If I don’t tip you at least 25%, you weren’t good. If I tip you 30-33%, you were so good that I’ll be asking for you next time I come in.
PPS With all of that said, and while I think the person who ordered the wine was being a dick, the manager was being stupid, unless his intention was indeed to not have that party return (which might very well have been the case). If I don’t like the policies of a place, or someone tries to screw me by doing something like the “rounding up” referred to earlier, I pay up, but don’t return. Bitching about it just ruins the experience for me.
PPS Anecdotally, everyone that I’ve been with that has bitched about the 18% gratuity, making claims such as “I would have tipped even more if they didn’t force me” are the same ones that leave the 5-10% tips when we eat in smaller parties. I’m with lissener on this one, as I usually stop going out with such people. I wish there was no need for the automatic gratuity, and love it when it’s not an issue, but I’ve been in plenty of large parties where I throw in the cost of my food/drink and a very generous tip, only to find out that the collector of the money is having a hard time coming up with enough to cover the cost of the food, not including the tip.
While I generally take the servers side on tipping issues, I feel that expensive wine is a special case. A mandatory forty dollar tip on a bottle of wine is unreasonable.