But we’re friendlier than anyone else. Much friendlier!
And don’t you dare suggest anything different.
I think part of the confusion may come from the definition of “pride.” When I say that I’m a proud Southerner what I mean is that this place is my home, I love it, and I don’t particularly want to live anywhere else. I don’t think that the region is necessarily superior than other parts of the U.S., just that I personally like it. If I had grown up in the Midwest or Northeast, I’d no doubt be proud of those regions. I wouldn’t call myself a militant Southerner by any means.
To some degree, I do get defensive when people assume that all Southerners are ignorant, unlettered bigots. However, I also get defensive when people say that all women are backstabbing, gold-digging bimbos. It’s not that I’m worried that I’m really a gold-digging bimbo or that my mama was, it’s just that those stereotypes are just flat-out untrue.
As for as the rebel-flag-waving-“the South will rise again” Southerners, well, that’s another ball of wax. I generally choose not to associate myself with those folks. I do think there’s an element of insecurity there, as well a whole lot of class and racial issues, but I don’t for a minute think that they represent the majority of Southerners.
I grew up in Chicago, went to college in TN. Talk about culture shock. The wierd thing for me was that I had never even thought about being “Northern” before. If someone had asked me to write a list of 1000 words to describe myself, Northern would not have made the list before I went to school in the South. The school I went to was about 50% Northern, 50% Southern, and it was always the Southern kids who brought up the N vs S issues. We Northerners didn’t know what to say at first.
So, my anecdotal personal experience has been that “southern” is far more important to Southerners than “northern” is to Northerners, ( I certainly didn’t know I was a Northerner until a Southerner told me!!!) and that it is really the Southerners who keep the stereotypes about the South going, more than anything Northerners do, by their outspoken in your face Southerness.
Having reread what I just wrote, I think I will leave now…
Gatopescado, the West is hardly immune from racism. You have heard of California’s skinhead movement, I presume?
Mmmm… I’ve lived in Cali for many a year, and have seen very few skinheads. I’d be willing to bet that there are 100 Blood/Crip/Mexican gang members for every one White skinhead.
Touche’. Racism is, unfortunately, a nationwide phenomenon. I grew up in the north, in upstate NY, and encountered more than my share of racism . (Sidenote…I guess in the '20’s, my town had a pretty decent sized Klan. The town historical society put out a book full of historical photos, and right on the last page, you see the Klansmen marching down what was then the town’s main street.) I have to say, after moving to Northern Virginia, I haven’t really seen any more racism than in Upstate NY.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
You reached this figure how?
There’s a saying in Virginia that the South doesn’t start until you cross the Rappahannock River.
I also grew up in Northern Virginia, which is considered neither Northern nor Southern by most people. It gives a unique detachment that’s allowed me to look at both Northerners and Southerners with an “outsider’s” eye.
I agree that some of the Southern pride comes from a defensive reaction. But I also think that much of the defensiveness is understandable. The South is still the subject of pretty broad stereotypes. I went to college in southern Virginia with a lot of people from northern states and several of them (who were very intelligent) honestly believed that the Civil War was referred to in southern schools as “the War of Northern Aggression”.
So to respond directly to the OP I don’t think there is a widespread sense of shame in the South. I think there is a wider sense of defensiveness.
I agree. I grew up in the south but went to work for a company with a major presence in the north. I always heard from the northerners how racist we southerners were and how ‘enlightened’ they were in the north. Then I would here all of these totally racist/bigoted comments from those very same people. Southern racism seems more blatant, cross burnings, KKK, etc… The northern racism was much more subtle but just as bad. I once asked why none of the filling stations in the area (NJ near the Oranges) were self service and was told “because all of the stupid pakis keep blowing themselves up by smoking at the pump”. This from a person who insists Little Rock is no different today than during the Central High School days and that the people in Bergen County (NJ I think) would never be racist.
Seems uncle Cecil still has plenty of work to do…
NP: Century Black summons… (Various Artists) - Firestarter
See, even bringing up the KKK and cross-burnings just reinforces stereotypes which (in my view) are no longer valid. The KKK hasn’t been a serious factor in the South for nearly 40 years. (Not since the mid-sixties.) These days, the Klan is just a vanishingly small collection of nut jobs.
(In fact, going back to my earlier post, I remember reading that the Klan is bigger in California than in any Southern state these days. And that’s not to say that it’s big in California, but only to emphasize how marginalized it is everywhere. I’ll try to find a cite.)
Not to say that there’s no racism today. Of course there is, but it is a shadow of its former self. Frankly, my impression from my own travels is that southern cities are more comfortably integrated these days than northern or western cities with sizeable minority populations. (I invite discussion on this point.)
Yet, the image persists of a South plagued by Klan violence. And I think white Southerners, in some part of their brains, still carry a collective guilt about that racist past. That manifests itself in a defensive reaction (such as my earlier post) when Southern racism is raised as an issue.
I was born in the South and lived there until I was eighteen. I’ve lived in the Pacific Northwest for 30 years now, and can tell you that many from the West and North have very prejudicial and uninformed attitudes about the South and southerners in general. I’ve also found, in my travels around the US, that racism can be found even in the most liberal strongholds, and tolerance and enlightenment in the most conservative. America is nothing if not diverse. I really think the image of southerners as barefoot, ignorant, rednecks is mostly the result of stereotyping by the various media, and “Southern Pride” a reaction to it. Unfortunately it seems that those who are reacting most vociferously are those who tend to be undereducated and undignified. So the stereotype is perpetuated. It’s with much regret that I see geographical and cultural differences used to further divide and alienate us. We need to get over it. All of us.
I did not care for Mississippi. Too hot. Don’t know about southerners, though (as in, I don’t have an opinion one way or the other). I do remember being in a mall in Gautier and seeing a black guy with a white girl, obviously together in some romantic fashion. I wouldn’t have noticed except I wanted to see what the hell everyone else was looking at.
:eek:
And I do mean gawking. I felt pretty bad for the couple.
erislover-
Yeah, there is still a cultural taboo in some parts of the South against mixed couples, but I would say it is a relatively mild taboo these days–nothing like it used to be. I wouldn’t think the taboo would manifest itself in any way beyond gawking these days. (But I invite debate on that point as well.)
Are you suggesting that this taboo is non-existent outside the South?
I am saying that there is definitely that element in Gautier. I’ve not noticed it anywhere else that I’ve lived (in the south, though I’m a yankee). And I didn’t really notice it anywhere else I’ve been in the south. I think it is really just the rural or small-town communities that have such problems, but those aren’t limited to the south. Again, the “popular” perception of the south is what does it. I think I’m sort of in agreement with the OP that the south has an unrealistic stigma.
My complaint about the south remains, though: too damn hot. I don’t know what the hell you guys are thinking. 
I’m from Mississippi, the red-headed stepchild of the nation. I’ll be the first to admit we have some damn terrible problems (racism is still flourishing and every other girl at my high school is pregnant) but MS gets in your blood and it stays there. How could I be ashamed of being what I am?
As for the heat – what are you talking about? MS in the summer is perfect, especially if you’re lucky enough to have a creek to go swimming in, like me! It’s the rest of the country that’s cold – brrr!
Oh, and my grandfather and great-grandfather were both in the Klan. Grandpa wasn’t much into it – he joined more 'cause his daddy made him than anything else. But my great-grandfather, now, is another story. He was just a freaking psychopath. Happens in the best of families. They’re both long dead now, and no-one else in my family has anything to do with the Klan. The last Klan rally I remember hearing about was in Laurel a few years back, and what, about six people showed up? More folks were heckling them in the crowd than joined in the rally.
.:Nichol:.
I’m a southerner. I don’t have any particular pride in being one, but I am proud to be a citizen of the U.S. Though I do feel somewhat sorry for those who live in the northern states.
What really makes me ashamed is southerners who come up with ideas like this OP.
As long as noone thinks you’re a Yankee.
Sorry, but I have to suggest something different. If there is one thing that the South could use to improve, it’s the xenophobia.
Many, many times my accent gave me away as being “not from around here” and I was treated as such (second class citizen). This has happened all over VA (Roanoke, Lynchburg, Bristol, Danville, Martinsville, all specific examples).
The worst was when we went into a bar in Lynchburg to get a beer on a saturday afternoon–My cousin-in-law and her father had been frequenting this bar for years. (We were moving her stuff out of Lynchburg.) After a living away from the south, my CIL had lost her accent for the most part. We went in and were promptly refused service by the waitstaff. Upon checking our friend’s ID, the bartender told him that he looked like he’d had too much to drink (he was dead sober and looked it) and wouldn’t be served. It took a good 90 seconds to realize what had just happened, and we walked out. My CIL was shocked. She, being a southerner, had always assumed that people made up the stories about rude Southerners–that is, until she had it happen to her.
This is nowhere near an isolated incident. I’ve been refused service, ignored, or been treated rudely all over the state, as well as in both Carolinas (mostly small border towns) and WV.
All because I don’t have a drawl.
Before someone decries that I’m a South-hater, please, don’t go there. I’ve lived here for 8 years, I love the weather and the wildlife, and I’m probably going to live here for a while longer. I’ve always treated individual people well unless they give me a reason not to–I expect the same and don’t think this is lot to ask. I think that a few Southern states still need a primer in the golden rule.
Wow, what a great thread! I think it’s high time us Southerners talked more about the South. Btw, welcome to the boards, mrsbunnie2you.
I’m a Southerner and damn proud of it. I love Southern accents and the warm, friendly, laidback atmosphere that I can usually find here. I was raised to be a lady. However, I don’t know or really care if what my mother calls being a lady correlates to being a Southern belle. I don’t feel a bit of shame about my roots, but I know lots of black folks who do, and I suspect there are plenty of white folks who do as well. My pride in my Southerness stems from knowing that my ancestors somehow survived the atrocities of slavery, Jim Crow segregation, and the covert and overt racism that still very much thrives in the South (and in the US generally), but manifests itself differently depending on where you go. What intrigues me about the South is its complexity. Understand that I don’t mean to say that other parts of the US aren’t complex. They are. It’s just that I know parts of the South best. What intrigues me is how I can interact with folks who could be classified as trailer trash, hicks, and middle and upper class, but for all my interaction, I know that the cultural connections could be tighter. These folks I interact with are primarily black and white, but there’s a mix of Native American, Asian, and Hispanic as well. I have an adopted white momma and sister who’ve made efforts to come into the black community, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule. And as much as I interact with white folks, I know that I’m not fully accepted into their communities. I wonder how folks whose history and families are so tightly interwoven can live still so segregated in body and/or mind from one another. There’s so much distrust, hurt, and resentment of whites on the parts of a lot of Southern blacks I know, and I’ve perceived quite a bit of benevolent and not so benevolent dismissal of blacks on the parts of some white Southerners who have the luxury of not having to embrace or understand blacks or black culture. It’s just a crying shame.
As much as I love the South, I realize that the South is an ugly place too. How much the shame that I imagine some if not a lot of Southerners of all races feel–whether or not they actually admit it to themselves or others–stems from the unresolved racial tensions from its history that still thrive and manifest themselves in various ways is debatable. I suspect the shame could be because folks just don’t talk about the histories* of the South, or they don’t know about it because the histories are not taught in school. Yeah, we can quibble over what to call the Civil War, but that just takes us away from all the other stuff that was going on that was the reason for the war. I honestly don’t know if the shame stems from the Civil War, class issues, or something else, but I do think that the South as well as the rest of the US won’t make progress until all its citizens can resolve the issues of its past.
I see and hear about the ugliness in subtle and not so subtle ways. Before I was born, one of my uncles was lynched. I’ve not been able to discern why because the family doesn’t talk about it. While the KKK most likely doesn’t have the prominence it once had, the fears that stem from misconceptions about race still very much influence folks. The South is still very much segregated in terms of its neighborhoods. The neighborhood where I grew up used to be predominantly white. As soon as black folks started moving in, there was a mass exodus of whites. As centered as the south is around going to church and stuff, many churches are still segregated. I was just talking with a young lady the other day who was describing a recent incident in her workplace. (I didn’t get around to asking her where she works or what she does.) The white folks could eat lunch at their desks, but the black folks were prohibited from doing so. When the manager was questioned about this, this person said that the reason that black folks could not eat lunch at their desks was because she didn’t want them to have fried chicken and greens at their desks! As if that’s all that all black folks can or do eat, OR that the white folks don’t and wouldn’t be eating fried chicken and greens at their desks. When the illogic of her position was pointed out to her, the manager got into a huff and said defensively that she didn’t see what was the problem. It wasn’t like she said that all the black folks would be eating watermelon at their desks! :rolleyes: What does one do with the cavalier ignorance of folks like that? I’ve frequented some places in Louisiana that make it very clear that blacks are not welcome [shudder]. A friend of mine pointed out quite correctly that slavery went on in DC, but when one goes to the museums and/or visits other historic sites, there’s no mention of that history at all. And of course there’s all this mess that has been going on with Thomas Jefferson’s family–both the black and white branches. [sigh] I could go on . . .
Yes, there are stereotypes that are rooted in a tiny bit of truth, but I’d be wary of anyone who buys completely into any type of stereotype. Well, I’ve rambled and testified, and I’m not sure if I’ve contributed to this thread or added to the confusion, but I honestly believe the South, like any other place in the US, is rich and complex and crazy. It has things that folks can and should be proud of and things that folks can and should not be proud of. With all of its problems, I’d still rather be a Southerner than anything else. 
*I say histories because a lot of times a lot of black or Native American history gets pushed to the side, and most of what we hear about is white contributions to Southern history.
I do hope that you were merely being sarcastic in the last sentence quoted above.
I’m am quite Southern - I refer to it as the “Civil War” b/c I majored in History. I know, hard to believe a Georgia girl actually went to school past the 10th grade. :rolleyes: 
I’ve lived my entire 26 years in the commonwealth of Kentucky, home of Bill Monroe, Maker’s Mark, Churchill Downs, the Corvette…what am I supposed to be ashamed of again?
Seriously, I am from about as isolated a hamlet as you could ever hope to find, and while I feel the South as a whole is making progress, little communities like my hometown are not. The reason is simple enough–people who don’t share the cultural biases and fear of progress typical of the populace just don’t hang around. There is certainly no reason for anyone to move in, since there really isn’t any money to be made in the area anymore.
Another thing hurting my area is that its economy used to be built on small family tobacco farms. In places like western KY and much of North Carolina, small family farms could be brought together into big factory farms, so the economy could survive, even if the family farmers became few and far between. The steep hills of eastern KY make this impossible. Every year, I hear of more lifelong tobacco farmers who just had to give it up, since you can’t even break even on a few acres anymore.
Now the coal is almost gone, yesterday’s tobacco farmer is today’s welfare recipient, and the best you can hope for is that a job will open up at the prison for $6.50 an hour. Attempts at bringing in new industry have been far too little and far too late as people have been hanging on tightly to the rapidly sinking tobacco ship.
It isn’t like this everywhere; some places have been somewhat re-energized by young, progressive leadership. I’ll be returning to eastern KY (though, for a lot of reasons, not my hometown) after my residency, and I hope to provide such leadership. I hope my efforts are not in vain; given the decline I’ve been witness to in the few years since I’ve paid attention, I fear for the area ten and twenty years from now.
As for racism, isolated areas like this one are where you’re going to find its strongest remnants. Kids still grow up hearing their fathers talk about the “damn niggers”, and my mother (a seventh-grade teacher) still occasionally hears a student say the same thing. This is because the best cure for racism is living and working alongside people from a variety of backgrounds; this is the whole point of affirmative action, IMO. About 7,000 people live in my home county, and I could count the black people who live there on one hand. (Again, why would they move there?) It is getting better, but it is subject to the same “skimming the cream” phenomenon described above–the degree of racism one holds is probably inversely proportional to one’s chances of eventually moving away.
I’m rambling, but I have been giving this a lot of thought as I prepare to leave the state for the first time (for another Southern state, at least, although NC seems to have its shit together a bit more by comparison, Jesse Helms aside) and I look at the prospect of coming back. I am proud to be from Kentucky, but I’m not blind to its problems, and that pride gives me a sense of responsibility to make things better.
Dr. J
PS: I was toothless, frequently barefoot, and living in a trailer for a while. We moved out just before I turned three. (My parents were saving up for the house.)