(Note: I am not referring to Lexington, where I’ve lived for the last eight years, which has its own problems but nothing like those described above. I’m speaking of where I lived for the eighteen years before that.)
You know, I have never agreed with this little tidbit. I had worked hard internally to reject the subtle racism that my grandfather tried to instill in me, and when I was in the Navy after high school I found more people that fit his stereotypes than I could shake a stick at.
I was completely flummoxed. I mean, it is one thing to feel, in your heart, that there is no difference between people, but it is another to witness it in action. Or rather, witness its stark absence.
To tell the truth, I still take it as a matter of near faith, because economic and social segregation is still noticible and contributes terribly to racist feelings. Self fulfilling prophecy and all. I don’t like to think about racism. 
erislover, I’m confused. I work and interact socially with folks from diverse backgrounds, and I haven’t found a signficant percentage of them fulfilling any kind of stereotype. If anything, I found folks being individuals to be the overwhelming thing. That’s not to say that I didn’t run into folks acting stereotypically in some ways, but I knew that those actions didn’t make up them entirely. Would you care to clarify what you mean by folks fulfilling stereotypes? Was this just limited to the Navy, or is this just in general in your life?
Oh, and in my other post where I was testifying and carrying on about my experiences and observations in parts of the South, I believe I was writing that in response to what spoke- was saying here, but I’d welcome comments from other Southerners and folks as well: “Not to say that there’s no racism today. Of course there is, but it is a shadow of its former self. Frankly, my impression from my own travels is that southern cities are more comfortably integrated these days than northern or western cities with sizeable minority populations. (I invite discussion on this point.)”
DoctorJ said: “I look at the prospect of coming back. I am proud to be from Kentucky, but I’m not blind to its problems, and that pride gives me a sense of responsibility to make things better.”
Amen, brother. Preach it. We need for more folks to have your attitude in regard to their own hometowns and/or places they now call home. Relations will not improve until folks make an active effort to work with and communicate effectively with others to bring about change.
Good thoughtful posts from Celestina and DoctorJ.
Racism lingers on, without question, but it’s my impression that it’s a little less virulent with each generation. My great-grandfather was in the Klan. My grandparents were vocal racists, but wouldn’t have any part in racial violence. My Dad was racist at the dinner table, but treated everyone he met and dealt with fairly, black or white. Me, I like to think that I’ve abandoned all the racist baggage. Here’s hoping that my kids don’t even understand the concept.
I see the same generational progression of attitudes in most other Southern white families. (Can I get an “Amen” on that point?)
I agree with Zoff that the “shame” of Southerners, and their defensiveness, can be a reaction to stereotypes. Example: I still see ads for classes to help people lose their Southern accents. Why try to lose your accent? Because if you have a Southern accent, people may assume that you are stupid. :rolleyes:
(Speaking of which, has anyone ever been confronted by that sort of bigotry?)
celestina, m’dear, my experiences with minorities are rather small. I have really only worked with blacks, and this has been in two situations: the Navy (ugh) and when I was working in Cleveland public housing projects (UGH). The rest of my experience has been what most people would go through: subway, shopping center, walking down the street… in other words, nothing major.
During my daily meanderings I see no stereotype reinforcement, so I suppose saying that I am rejecting them on faith is a little bit of a hyperbole. But my experiences in the military and public housing have definitely done much to challenge my resolve.
Well, I don’t think this is ever really a concern, even for out-and-out racists. 'Cept the ones we see on television. 
In that case… [takes off hat and sits down on the couch] I’m not sure exactly what you mean. I can say that larger cities in the north have their minority populations rather, well, sectioned off in that different minorities seem to congregate over the same geographical region, more or less. Blacks in Cleveland, for example, have the east side, Hispanics have much of the west side, polacks have Parma (;)). In Boston we of course have Chinatown, though I never really stray out of Cambridge so any other pseudo-localities have escaped my uninterested attention. Is this what you mean, or are you thinking along different lines?
spoke-, well, hon, black and white Southerners are making some progress, but we’ve got a long ways to go. You say you see the virulence in white Southern families lessening with each generation, particularly in your own. Well, since I don’t know you or the folks you know, I’ll have to trust you on that one. Yes, in my experiences, I’ve run into some decent white folks who’ve treated me well, but I’ve also run into some who’ve benevolently dismissed me, and some who’ve not been so benevolent in their dismissal. It think it’s difficult to quantify how far we’ve come in terms of race relations. While the openness of racism isn’t as ubiquitous as it used to be, those attitudes don’t just die out overnight. There’s still the problem, as I mentioned in an earlier post, of folks still being segregated in terms of their neighborhoods and even where they go to church or other places where they interact socially. And there’s still very much a lack of effort on the parts of some if not a lot of white Southerners to really get to know black folks, and some if not many black folks who’ve traditionally tried to get to know white folks are with each generation I think getting more and more fed up with being dismissed. That doesn’t mean that some haven’t managed to move beyond their differences. Some have, but many, I think, haven’t, and that’s a shame because the South wouldn’t be the wonderful, complex, sad, crazy, beautiful, and rich place it is without the contributions of all its citizens, and the sooner we all recognize that and pay tribute to it, painful as that may be, the better off we’ll be. I don’t know if this makes any sense. I certainly do hope, though, that us Southerners can learn to overcome our differences and really learn to relate to each other, but based on what I’ve seen and related, some of which I put in my post, especially in the deep South, I think we’ve got a long way to go before we get to that place.
As far as the classes to help folks get rid of their Southern accents, I’ve never seen or heard of them before. Why, if that isn’t the silliest thing I ever heard of! Why would anyone want to give up such beautiful accents? 
I think if someone told me I needed to lose my Southern accent, I’d have to tell that person that s/he needed to get his/her head examined. :):p:)
erislover, I honestly don’t know what to say to you, except that if you’re basing your view of black folks on your experiences with them in the Navy and in public housing in Cleveland, then you are using hyperbole and selling yourself short. I’ve run into black folks and folks of other ethnicities and stuff whom I didn’t get along with, but I didn’t let my dislike for these individuals color my judgement about interacting with other members of those groups. FWIW, I think you need to really re-examine your views on blacks and perhaps get out there and interact with a different mix of folks in a different social milieu not solely in the professional realm. IIRC, your experiences in the public housing situation in Cleveland were due in part to your job, and I imagine your interactions in the Navy were also a part of your job at that time. But of course, it’s a free country, and you can do whatever you want to, including telling me to mind my own business.
celestina, in case you missed it, I believe I mentioned that I am not prejuded against anyone, but that in my limited interaction it has been hard to resist the upbringing I’ve had. I don’t care about skin color, accents, or any of it (well, ok, I admit that I wish I could develop a New England accent ;)).
There are some places in my ole home state of Georgia that many black folks just won’t go to because they aren’t wanted there. Forsyth County is one place that comes to mind. I don’t know what it’s like now, but just a few years ago (within my short lifetime), it was a well-known fact that membership to a certain club was required to experience Southern hospitality there.
Sigh. That was more or less true in days of yore. (There was, according to legend, a sign at the county line which said “Ni**er, don’t let the sun set on you in Forsyth County.” That was sixty or eighty years ago.)
You may also recall that this was where civil rights leader Hosea Williams held a couple of controversial marches about 15 years ago. During his first march a handful of Klansmen showed up and pelted his small group of marchers with rocks. (A few of the aforementioned nut-jobs.) Hosea returned later and a crowd of thousands of marchers, black and white, joined him in a show of support.
These days, Forsyth County has become just a northern suburb of Atlanta. It is one of the ten fastest-growing counties in the US, and there are plenty of blacks moving there as well as whites (and Hispanics and Asians). It is a different place entirely today.
I’ve spent all but about 2-3 years of my life here in Texas, and I’d consider myself Texan before I consider myself Southern. I think of the official “south” as being much further east… Texas has its own differences and really is detached from the rest of the south, in my mind.
I do have a slight accent, which has been lessened by my extended stays in Canada with the SO, and up North in general. The Texas accent is also noticably different from the people in say, Georgia and Tennessee. (Which I can tell the difference between, when they are pronounced enough and not mixed.) I think that’s something that most Northerners fail to understand – that the South is not one big amorphous blob where everyone talks and dresses the same. You have a strong Mexican presence and influence in TX, a French influence in Louisiana, and so on the farther you go east. There’s quite a bit of variety here. More variety, in fact, than I have noticed in my travels through the midwest and northeast, where the “culture” at least seems a bit more homogenized.
I am not bothered by southern stereotypes. I wear around cowboy boots, and people up north ask me where I’m from. My SO, who is from Canada, likes to tease me, but generally I play along. To me, it’s fun to be from a place that allows me to have such a large amount of character (and preconceived notions to play with). I can’t help but think of places like Ohio or Vermont (no offense Ohio and Vermont people!) as being kind of blah, and mayonaisse on white bread. I’m sure they’re nice places to live, but I wouldn’t be particularly excited about visiting there.
I am loud, obnoxious, and opinionated.
Yup, I grew up in Texas. 
One of my friends is from the South, and I’ve learned a lot from him. I realized that I have had a lot of prejudices and preconceptions about the South, and he has gotten REALLY pissed at me a few times about them. But the thing is, many people from the West have no clear picture of what the South is. We get our information from the media. And, most importantly, we don’t THINK too much about the South. Don’t be angry when I say that - it’s just that who really THINKS too hard about a place that they’ve never been to, and that is pretty far away? We just absorb the media’s stereotypes, and then go on to think about something else that is closer to home.
But, once we visit the South, or encouter real life Southerners, we start to THINK, and we start to realize we’ve been fed a bill of stereotypical goods by the media. I can only speak for myself here, but I doubt that most people would willingly cling to a stereotype, even after being confronted with the reality that is the South. In my case, I was delighted by what I saw in the South (mostly Atlanta). I loved it there. It has great art stores. Any place that has great art stores is automatically a fabulous place.
One thing I will say about my friend - he does tend to jump the gun and get knee-jerk. He’ll see an “anti-Southern” attitude in perfectly innocent things. And sometimes, he’ll try to “give me a taste of my own medicine” (so to speak) by attempting to trash California a little bit. Because he (I guess) figures that I will be as upset by anti-California talk is he is upset by (what he interprets as) anti-Southern talk. But it doesn’t work that way. Most Californians I know enjoy some California bashing (because it’s all in fun) and we don’t really care if other people don’t like it. There’s just a different mindset going on. What will upset him won’t upset me. I’m sure it’s because he’s taken far more shit for being from the South than I have for being Californian. (Actually, I’ve never taken any “shit” that really upset me. Amazed me, but not upset me.)
jinwicked wrote:
See? Here we have a whole state that is so ashamed of being Southern that it tries to distance itself from the rest of the region.
Actually, I really have noticed a lot of this “We’re not really Southern, we’re Western” stuff from Texans.
IMHO Texas culture is Southern, through and through (with a dash of Mexican culture for spice, of course). Face it, Texans. You have Southern accents. You eat grits. You eat barbecue. (Albeit beef barbecue for some odd reason.) You were a slave state. You were part of the Confederacy. You were part of the “Solid South” voting bloc for decades. You’re Southern. :eek:
In fact (and this has come up in other threads) some of the most accurate media images of Southern culture have come from movies set in Texas. (Maybe because movies set in Texas don’t have to play to Southern stereotypes?)
I’ve been lurking in this thread for a while, and find it really interesting. I’m originally from southern Louisiana (which is about as southern as you can get except for Mississippi!), and live in eastern Massachusetts (which is about as Yankee as you can get, no qualifier needed.)
I am very proud of my southern upbringing. So much so, that it pains me that my daughter is being raised without many of the things that I took for granted as a kid. We never called adults by their first name only. It was always “Miss Bonnie” or “Mister Lee Roy”. We went to Sunday school each week, and then to my grandmother’s house after church for Sunday dinner. (Where no matter what was on the menu, it went with rice and gravy.) We went fishing in creeks that ran behind our house, and netted crawfish in the ditches in front of the house. My daughter won’t even know what a ditch is.
I realize that much of this is nostalgia for my childhood, but there is something uniquely southern that I find interesting and attractive about myself and other southerners. It’s a friendliness, or laid-back-ness, or sense of humour. It’s knowing what you can expect at a “meat and three”, and if you’re from Louisiana, it’s knowing what it means to “suck the head and eat the tail.” It’s knowing what it’s like to be really hot in the summer, and to almost never wear shoes as a kid because you just didn’t need to. And it’s a shared understanding of what it’s like to love a lifestyle that is misunderstood by many other people in this country.
Until recently there were three of us in my small department at work that were from the south. Two of us from Louisiana, one from South Carolina. Lunchtime conversations were always lively and funny, and we always had interesting stories to tell. The rest of the department enjoyed hearing the stories, but looked on us as a little strange.
I don’t feel ashamed about the history of racism in the south, because I have never been racist. I am saddened by events of the past, and that racism continues, but don’t take it to heart in the form of shame. I do see that it still exists, and saw its effects very vividly during a year I recently spent managing a call center in Columbia, SC. All of the management was white (because we all moved there from Massachusetts, and there just aren’t that many blacks here), and 2/3 of the telesales reps that we hired were black. It didn’t take long to realize that people I was working with had a history of dealing with racist management and an expectation that I would be racist as well. History is a hard thing to overcome, and I wasn’t 100% successful in overcoming it during my short stay there.
But in my experience, racism may be closer to the surface in some parts of the south, but is just as insidious in the north. It is simply cloaked beneath the veneer of political correctness.
Attitudes I’ve experienced in Massachusetts towards southerners have been mixed, and have run the gamut from an amazing lack of understanding of the south to complete derision toward southerners. My first husband’s initial response, when I told him I was from southern Louisiana, was “Oh, is that like white trash?” He wasn’t trying to be mean or hurtful. In his youth and ignorance he truly thought that was the proper term for a southerner. I pointed out to him that any phrase with the word trash in it isn’t a compliment. On occasion people will assume that I’m ignorant if they pick up on my slight accent, but as Shagnasty said, it is actually quite charming if carried properly. (Which he does, by the way. What a southern gentleman. ;))
I can’t imagine being ashamed to be from the south, or wishing I was from the north. That’s like believing that women really wish they had penises. Geesh.
I hate grits and I don’t eat red meat. 
[sub]Ok, well except for the occassional steaming bowl of Wolf-brand chili…[/sub]
Morgainelf, what a delightful post! Thanks for sharing that with us. I remember my first trip “up north”, to Philadelphia (Yardley, to be exact). And what a trip it was!
I was visiting one of our vendors, and drove (yes, drove!) all the way from Charlotte to Philly. I made an awful lot of faux pas. I told them their donuts were stale. “They’re bagels”, they informed me. I asked them if their plant would be closing when the “blizzard” (read snow flurries) started. They laughed. They wanted to hear me “tock”, so I made clock noises. “Huh? Oh, you mean tawk?”
The cultural differences were greater than I had expected. While there, I ran into a transplanted Texan who worked for them. He and I were best buddies for the rest of my visit. Anyway, I enjoyed your post.
Thanks, Lib. My mother tells a story about her first brush with yankees - she couldn’t figure out why someone would name their kid Clock! (Of course, he was Clark.) And part of our motivation for opening a call center in Columbia was to have coverage during bad snow storms in Massachusetts. The first snow closing that year happened in Columbia - we got 2 inches of snow, and the entire city was immobilized. 
Yeah, good post Morgainelf.
Am I the only one here who cringes when a stereotypical Southerner winds up on camera in a news story, then? Say, for example, some cracker spouting off about the Confederate flag, and how the Civil War wasn’t really about slavery, etc. Or maybe when a stereotypical trailer park Southerner gets interviewed after a tornado? Don’t y’all sort of worry about negative stereotypes being reinforced?
About Southern accents and false assumptions:
I have encountered many people who make assumptions about me because of my accent. I first encountered this when I went off to college. I had tested well enough to place out of Freshman Composition, but was assigned the class anyway. So, I went to talk to my faculty advisor about the mixup. In my (very thick) Southern accent, I told this New Yorker professor that I didn’t think I was supposed to be in Freshman Comp. The guy gave me a look of utter disbelief. When I showed him my test scores, he was visibly surprised, and sort of stammered, “Huh, well… I guess you’re right.”
That was just the first of many similar experiences.
A friend of mine (with a similar cracker accent) moved to South Florida. There, he found that some transplanted Northerners he encountered felt free to make the most vile racist remarks around him. He was really annoyed by this because they seemed to be assuming (because of his accent) that he must share their racist views.
Anyone else have similar experiences?
I don’t know, Spoke, a southern accent can make a person sound downright scholarly. (Think of WP Mayhew in Barton Fink, for example.) I much prefer a melodious southern drawl to a whiny yankee twang. It’s the choice of words and the tone that matter most.
I also grew up in Atlanta and am proud to be a Southerner. I feel a little competitive about being Southern but only when its brought up by others. Most of the stereotypes are the emodiment of the ignorance they’re supposed to represent. I have a distinctive accent that is particular to the Atlanta area and even other Southerners have commented on it. I live in Nashville now which I have been suprised to find is actually more similar to the Midwest than the South. Go figure. On the topic of the klan, it does exist on a minor level and its adherrants are of the fanatic fringe variety. I could not live up North. I would wither without fried chicken and iced tea. Ain’t I pitiful?
Well, they have this stained water that they call iced tea. But […grave and somber voice…] It. Has. No. Sugar. :eek: