Damn, you made me work. 
Here it is.
Respect means respecting what the other person wants, not what you think they should want. Would it be respectful to donate money to the ACLU in memory of a rigid conservative?
When I saw the title of the OP, my first thought was why bring this up again - but it seems that, despite the agreement, it is going on at a higher level than could be explained by a few mavericks.
I think the whole thing makes me think of missionaries going to visit the poor unwashed villagers to convert them. I mean, poor dumb things, they didn’t know any better, right? Now they can be good Christian men instead of living like savages. :rolleyes:
Speaking for myself–yes I am. Whether others are offended is their business, of course. There are different situations here.
If I’m going through a rough time in my life and someone says, “I’m sorry to hear that. I’ll pray for you,” then I respond with gratitude. They have expressed sympathy and well wishes in their own way. If they want to offer empathy to me, even if I don’t think praying is effective, that is not the time or the place to offer objection about their manner of doing so.
However.
When someone says, basically, that my soul is in danger (i.e. you are a bad person or leading a bad life out of ignorance) that is profoundly insulting to me. Not because I even believe I have a soul–but because of the judgment they have made about my character. There are people (I know some personally and I am descended from others) who are honestly convinced that despite all the good I could try to do, despite not harming anyone, despite arguing for causes I think are right, despite being charitable to those less fortunate–that none of that matters. I do not believe that Jesus Christ is my savior, so I am going to hell. By denying the existence of God, I am sinning in a horrible way that is on par with breaking other commandments. (Note that one of the 10 commandments is about not murdering people.) So yes, when people who believe that the very essence of my being is in danger because I’m honest about my beliefs, view of the world, and moral compass–I am insulted.
However, again.
When those people die, I would advocate burying them, etc. according to their last wishes. It is not up to me to decide that because I think their beliefs are dumb, I should deal with their last rites or remains in a way that suits me.
Or, on preview, what Voyager said, much more succinctly than I managed to:
That needs to be on a t-shirt or a bumper sticker.
How, exactly, does the church determine whether or not someone who’s already dead objects to it?
Does the church make any effort to contact surviving relatives and ask them first?
Is there some well-publicized process through which a person (or their surviving relatives) can have his or her name placed on the “do not proxy baptize” list?
Maybe we can start one at like www.donotbaptize.com?
Kind of like the federal Do Not Call list.
I have a deal for the Church Of Latter Day Saints! Oy, have I got a deal!
You can baptize any and all of my ancestors PROVIDED that a hot Mormon girl give me a blowjob for each soul baptized. At first, this may sound outrageous. But think of it, eternal salvation. Isn’t the everlasting fate of a soul worth worth performing oral sex on a drug and disease free man? Isn’t it a minor hardship? Isn’t it a thousand times worth it to save even a single soul? If you think the price is too high, maybe you should question whether you really are devoted to the Church or to Christ.
BTW- Anne Neville
You said something I’ve been meaning to research. Exactly where does it say that the dead are not bound by the commandments? I’m curious also as to the halachic definition of death.
Ha! She’ll blow you using her husband as your proxy. You may receive the metaphysical benefits of the blowjob if you so choose.
I’ve come up with the strong urge to get myself elected Pope so I can excommunicate all of Jodi’s dead relatives.
I think this is terribly offensive. I don’t think it hurts the dead, but it does hurt some of the living. I’m only vaguely religious, but if anyone baptistized my very Catholic dead grandmother in the Mormon church, I’d be VERY upset. She had respect for people of other faiths, to not respect hers is an insult to her memory.
I will put this whole thing to the test.
I hereby vow that if the LDS baptize me after I die, which I’m sure they will, I will come back to haunt the temple in which the ceremony was performed until they recant my baptism. I’ll do it up big too! I’ll make the walls bleed, I’ll burn my name into ceiling in a way that can’t be painted over and I’ll posses the bodies of young ladies and make them masturbate all the time while shouting out my name. Oh, there will be lots of masturbation!
If there is no afterlife then none of this will happen, of course.
Under the First Amendment, you don’t have a choice.
Sorry (okay, not really), but there it is. There is no right not to be offended.
You can say “No, thanks”, or you can be a jerk about it to the extent allowed by law, but you do have to tolerate it.
I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Nowhere did I say that obnoxious proselytizing should be made illegal.
This doesn’t mean that we must be subservient and raise no objections to obnoxious behavior.
Understand the difference? Good.
Okay, as a former mormon who resigned membership years ago, first I would like to publicly apologize to the 20 or so dead people (and their families) for whom I was dunked. I really wasn’t given a choice if I wanted to perform this ritual and I really didn’t understand how disrespectful, judgmental, tasteless, and offensive it is. All the other teenagers in my ward were going to D.C. and I wanted to see that city, so I went on the trip.
I am so terribly sorry.
That being said, I resigned my membership. I live in fear that some well-meaning, misguided asshat family member of mine will decide that I didn’t really mean it, or I didn’t really know what I wanted, and will wait until I die and then baptize me again, by proxy. I’m trying to figure out if there’s some way to put it in my will but we see how well the LDS church honored their first agreement not to baptize Holocaust victims. If someone can sneak my name into the records at their nearest temple, I’m quite sure they will.
So I am officially putting all Doper mormons on notice: If I am baptized after my death – after I’ve made it perfectly clear, in writing, that I have no interest in being a mormon in this lifetime or the next – if I can, I will haunt each and every one of you until your death. And if there is an afterlife, I *will *follow you around, taunting you, for eternity. And my Estate will be strictly instructed to sue the ever-loving crap outta the church.
Fair warning.
Again, my deepest apologies to the dead and families of the dead for whom I performed the ritual. I knew not what I was doing.
First, this:
Except for the part about D. C. (mine was a scouting trip …), that is pretty much the story of my life.
Hold it. Wait. A. Minute. [Begin Slight, if Somewhat Passionate Hijack]
You found a way to actually resign? Please tell me how ya did it. Because, I believe you only think you resigned.
But you really need to have an unrelated Member in Good Standing check for you (preferably someone with a temple recommend who resides in a different state) - betcha a good steak dinner you’re still there - listed as a Member In Good Standing [Possibly Inactive].
As of July 18th of this year, which is the most recent check I’ve done:
My eldest sister is still listed as living and is a Member In Good Standing [Possibly Inactive]. Despite the fact that she died eleven years ago, and was excommunicated. Twice. First time in 1974 for a, well, lets just call it a public demonstration during a sacrament meeting (that even I thought was quite tacky …) The second time (after she discovered in 1987 that her name was still on the rolls) ‘for cause’. 'Cause she requested it. And threatened legal action. Yup, still a member with no black marks going all the way back to her baptism at age 8.
And my other sister who chose to become a very devout Catholic nearly 39 years ago still has an active temple recommend. (As tough as those are to get I never figured that one out …)
And, we needn’t cover all my efforts over the years to get my name off the membership rolls. But after being told on eight different occasions that as an avowed, cranky, and with sufficient provocation, militant atheist my name would certainly be removed. Of curse,* I’m still listed as a (you guessed it) Member In Good Standing [Possibly Inactive]. Oh, yeah, and guess what? According to the records, I still hold the Aaronic Priesthood despite the fact that I haven’t set foot in a wardhouse (except for a couple of funerals) in more than 37 years. Pretty Amazing, Huh?
They’ll tell you it’s easy. “All you need to do is ask”, they’ll say. Then they’ll tell you your name was, indeed, removed. And when YOU or a relative of yours check it out, sure 'nuff, it’s gone. But it’s not really gone. They still need to count you among the faithful for general marketing purposes. And for that, they still need your name. Besides, it wouldn’t look very good if they kept a record of all those who voluntarily left the church.
[/S,iSP Hijack]
ON TOPIC:
Someone up thread (sorry, now I can’t find it :mad:) said something to the effect that they could not understand how a member in good standing would have a problem with this practice. Allow me to bear my testimony** regarding this, IMNSHO, offensive ritual. It was and still is my number 3 reason for leaving the (lower-case) church oh so many years ago.***
So, again ditto Dogzilla’s apology to all those for whom I took the dive. Or, more accurately, their families.
At the time, I gnu not what I dood either.
Lucy
- That’s not a typo. It really is a curse. Not of the “Black Magic” kind - more of the “Fuck, will you ever let me go?” kind.
** Not really. But it is the truth.
***Okay … more correctly … I left, but my name is still being held hostage.
I said it and it was in response to Jodi’s reminder that not all members of the Church believe everything that the church teaches. I don’t think you disprove my point. You did have a problem with it (among other things), and so you left. But people who go do it on a weekly and monthly basis don’t see anything wrong with it. People who don’t go but could (because they have their temple recommends) don’t see anything wrong with it. Hell, I would bet $10 that casual members who only make it to church on Christmas and Easter don’t see anything wrong with it. People who buy wholeheartedly that the first step towards salvation is baptism are not going to say “Yeah, it is pretty bad to do this.”
Incidentally, you can resign from the church and have your name removed from the roll. Just go to Mormon No More for a guide to how to do it. On the other hand, I’m not aware of any way to stop future Mormons (or current ones) from baptizing you after you die.
FTR, I never took the dive for anybody.
Buh wuh… I thought the ritual was suppose to give the deceased an option at baptism, as opposed to an actual one.
According to wikipedia, the ritual (or ordinance, in LDS parlance) involves the following statement, “Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you for and in behalf of [full name of deceased person], who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.”
Er, that seems a little intrusive. Where does the bit about the deceased’s choice come in?
In other news, Wikipedia maintains that baptism for the dead was declared heretical by the Orthodox church in the 4th century. So I guess this is an old controversy.
Pepperlandgirl is correct. Follow the link she posted.
I have a letter from Greg Dodge at the church office building saying that I’m now officially an apostate, I’m consigned to Outer Darkness for eternity after my death (haunting mormons who baptise me posthumously), and all rites, rituals, commitments, and blessings have hereby been revoked.
I framed it. 
I have not had a visit from the missionaries, Visiting Teachers, or Home Teachers since.
Having said that, it is highly likely that my name is still on the rolls somewhere, but as long as they don’t bang on my door anymore, I can live with that.
And stop by for a visit to www.postmormon.org. I’m Dogzilla over there too! (I was here first!)
Generally, you write a letter to SLC. Greg Dodge’s team forwards that to your local bishop or Stake Pres. That dude is supposed to visit you or call you to make sure you are sure you really, really want to resign. He sends the apostasy paperwork back to SLC; you get your “bite me” letter a couple months later. YMMV
Another ex checking in. I did the plunge for the dead while in my youth. Quite a trip, as Mormons believe in total emersion, you stand there in waist-deep water while some bored guy recites the above prayer and inserts a name off a computer screen. Then underwater and back up.
It’s all alphabetized by last names, and I must have hit all the Russian Jews. We would do the early morning shift, be baptized for several scores of names and barely be late for school.
As a firm believer, I never saw anything wrong with it, but now find it creepy. Of course, I find everything about Mormonism creepy now.
I thought I’d bump this thread to report on a fledgling movement to convert dead Mormons into homosexuals.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/20/145340/48/889/664239